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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:59 am Post subject: subaru swap questions |
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looking at the classifieds for an under 2004 EJ25 donor, it seems all the listings locally are automatics, and or all wheel drive manuals
Is there a donor model that is better for the 2WD manual trans?
I'm also exploring a 091 with a gear change like Skills is running in his 70 bay
ratios:
1 3.80
2 2.06
3 1.14
4 .70
r&p 4.57
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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rosevillain
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: roseville, ca
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:40 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| I think all Subarus around here are all wheel drive, manual or automatic. The Subarugears kits account for this. If you're sticking with the VW trans, why does AWD matter? |
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Vee Dub Nut
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Dallas, GA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
looking at the classifieds for an under 2004 EJ25 donor, it seems all the listings locally are automatics, and or all wheel drive manuals
Is there a donor model that is better for the 2WD manual trans?
I'm also exploring a 091 with a gear change like Skills is running in his 70 bay
ratios:
1 3.80
2 2.06
3 1.14
4 .70
r&p 4.57 |
As far as your donor goes, it doesn't matter if your engine comes from a manual or AT donor car. There is a trans ID pin that you ground (pin number varies depending on the donor) to tell the engine ECU that its a manual application, so its not looking for anything from the TCM. This was my experience with my 99 Forester SOHC EJ25 donor (originally an AT car). Get whatever donor you can, in best condition/lowest miles if your trying to use without a rebuild or new shortblock.
Regarding your 091 gearing, what you have shown there is an often recommended and used combo. I have used that exact gearing combo in my swap when I first built it, and drove my bus for >2 years that way. My honest opinion though is that it leaves a little bit to be desired. The gear spread between the 1.14 3rd and 0.70 4th is wide. Also, depending on your tire diameter and type of driving style, you might find that the 0.70 is longer than you really want. Its definitely manageable and a lot better than a bone stock 091 box, but its not a totally natural feel when you drive IMO. My current box I feel like is a better solution, albeit more expensive. My new box is all stock 1-3 ratios, 0.812 GT 4th, and a GT 4.14 r/p. This gives a much better feel/spacing between all gears, and pulls the entire gear spread up with the longer 4.14 r/p.
Whatever you do, make sure you consider the full combo. Your intended driving style (normal driving/flat land cruising, off road eventuring climbing mountains/hills, etc), your Bus (light weight transporter, or fully loaded full tilt westy), and tire size should all play into what you decide to do with the box. Its all in the combo.
_________________
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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deathman68
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 342
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| Quote: |
| As far as your donor goes, it doesn't matter if your engine comes from a manual or AT donor car. |
One slight caveat here...the MT cars have a special bracket to keep the timing belt from jumping a tooth if you decide to dump the clutch. Probably just a safety measure and is easy to source online.
_________________
1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| rosevillain wrote: |
| I think all Subarus around here are all wheel drive, manual or automatic. The Subarugears kits account for this. If you're sticking with the VW trans, why does AWD matter? |
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I wasn’t sure if you could use the awd manual, I thought I would ask the question to make sure . I had read something about that , but after reading a pile of threads , things kind of get muddied up.
I was exploring both ways for transmission , but keep going back to the subi 5 speed
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| rosevillain wrote: |
| I think all Subarus around here are all wheel drive, manual or automatic. The Subarugears kits account for this. If you're sticking with the VW trans, why does AWD matter? |
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I wasn’t sure if you could use the awd manual, I thought I would ask the question to make sure . I had read something about that , but after reading a pile of threads , things kind of get muddied up.
I was exploring both ways for transmission , but keep going back to the subi 5 speed
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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rosevillain
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: roseville, ca
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
| rosevillain wrote: |
| I think all Subarus around here are all wheel drive, manual or automatic. The Subarugears kits account for this. If you're sticking with the VW trans, why does AWD matter? |
.
I wasn’t sure if you could use the awd manual, I thought I would ask the question to make sure . I had read something about that , but after reading a pile of threads , things kind of get muddied up.
I was exploring both ways for transmission , but keep going back to the subi 5 speed |
Gotcha. There is just enough Subaru swap information to make sure that I do mine completely wrong. I like the Subaru gearbox idea because if you use 15" wheels, the gearing should be correct. A fully loaded bus and a fully loaded Forester are pretty close in weight. Driving on the coast side of the ring gear is the sticking point for many. I hope that you post your swap, I really dug your air filter and engine builds. |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| Vee Dub Nut wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
ratios:
1 3.80
2 2.06
3 1.14
4 .70
r&p 4.57 |
Regarding your 091 gearing, what you have shown there is an often recommended and used combo. I have used that exact gearing combo in my swap when I first built it, and drove my bus for >2 years that way. My honest opinion though is that it leaves a little bit to be desired. The gear spread between the 1.14 3rd and 0.70 4th is wide. Also, depending on your tire diameter and type of driving style, you might find that the 0.70 is longer than you really want. Its definitely manageable and a lot better than a bone stock 091 box, but its not a totally natural feel when you drive IMO. My current box I feel like is a better solution, albeit more expensive. My new box is all stock 1-3 ratios, 0.812 GT 4th, and a GT 4.14 r/p. This gives a much better feel/spacing between all gears, and pulls the entire gear spread up with the longer 4.14 r/p.
Whatever you do, make sure you consider the full combo. Your intended driving style (normal driving/flat land cruising, off road eventuring climbing mountains/hills, etc), your Bus (light weight transporter, or fully loaded full tilt westy), and tire size should all play into what you decide to do with the box. Its all in the combo. |
full weight 1970 westfalia camper, and assorted stuff...we live on the prairies, but are only 2 an hour from the mountains.
definitely need to find the donor, and then go from there.
The subigears swap on the pinion/ring I'm not confident in doing myself, but the ease of matching gearbox to motor, 5 speeds, and mounting is pretty straight forward , and around $4k canadian.
Or upgrade the gearing in the '71 box 002 or 091 , and buy the mounting plate/clutch from kennedy, probably the same $$CDN neighborhood as the subi
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| Vee Dub Nut wrote: |
| [words.... |
too much to quote but agree with everything
if you go my old route, 3+4 do have a hole, and you're running in 3rd around town. it's a bit odd to describe. I don't mind it seeing i can pull 80 before shifting to 4th
that said, I have been doing a R+P swap which brings all the ratios up. Huge difference, but it goes from a GTI gearing/feeling to that of a mustang II
I'd love to try out VDN's gearing
don't do a 5 speed.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:52 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Vee Dub Nut wrote: |
| [words.... |
too much to quote but agree with everything
if you go my old route, 3+4 do have a hole, and you're running in 3rd around town. it's a bit odd to describe. I don't mind it seeing i can pull 80 before shifting to 4th
that said, I have been doing a R+P swap which brings all the ratios up. Huge difference, but it goes from a GTI gearing/feeling to that of a mustang II
I'd love to try out VDN's gearing
don't do a 5 speed. |
interesting, I have been back and forth on the 5 speed....
on the plus side it is geared for the 2.5, but the trans disassembly & pinion swap, and possible hydraulic clutch swap complicate things.
Plus it doesn't look like the bay window 4.41 pinion kit is available from subarugears right now.
VS an 002 that just works in the bus with the right gearing and no modifications.
Benco recommended a 4.57 ring and pinion with a stock 1, 2 and a weddle 1.14 3rd , and .70 4th
What are you swapping your R&P to Skills?
is there any advantage to the 091 VS the 002 if I were to just order one without the core swap? The shipping from Alberta Canada to California might not be worth the hassle.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Convoy
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2011
Posts: 312
Location: San Clemente
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:18 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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Just added input on gearing. What I did which works great for me. I had Benco set this up.
002
Retained Stock 1st (3.80), 2nd (2.06), and 3rd (1.26)
Changed 4th from (0.889) to (0.82)
Changed RP from (4.857) to (4.57)
No wine and the spread is great for me.
Pulls the slow long grades in 4th nicely.
Tires currently running 195/14, may go to 27" tires but I really like the torque feel in 4th so I'm in no hurry yet.
I typically like to run on the freeway at about 3200 RPM...
No Cooling issues.
_________________
1974 Westfalia
2.2 Subie
Benco 002 |
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Vee Dub Nut
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Dallas, GA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:30 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| deathman68 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As far as your donor goes, it doesn't matter if your engine comes from a manual or AT donor car. |
One slight caveat here...the MT cars have a special bracket to keep the timing belt from jumping a tooth if you decide to dump the clutch. Probably just a safety measure and is easy to source online. |
100%, good distinction to call out between the AT and MT cars.
I bought the little belt guide bracket do-dad from the dealer and added it to my engine. Just bolts up at the oil pump.
_________________
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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Vee Dub Nut
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004
Posts: 1184
Location: Dallas, GA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:56 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| I'd love to try out VDN's gearing |
You ever get down this way, hit me up and come take it for a spin.
Overall I'm pretty happy with how my new setup has worked out. To me its sort of the best of both worlds. The 4.14/0.812 4th isn't quite as long as the 4.57/0.70, but gives you a little more legs than just the 4.14/0.89. Overall the box just feels natural everywhere.
For what its worth, guys running the taller 27" AT tires, I think just the 4.14 r/p is probably a good route. Likely don't need to stretch 4th out any more on that combo. Just my opinion.
_________________
Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:46 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
Benco recommended a 4.57 ring and pinion with a stock 1, 2 and a weddle 1.14 3rd , and .70 4th
What are you swapping your R&P to Skills?
is there any advantage to the 091 VS the 002 if I were to just order one without the core swap? The shipping from Alberta Canada to California might not be worth the hassle. |
the gearing I have (and would need to confirm) is what you listed from benco
Matt Steedle does the trans work now and only because he's closer. benco was fantastic and has done 4 transmissions for me with zero issues
no matter what you do, take into consideration the tire/wheel size you plan to run for the rest of your life, or at least consider what options you have to move up or down and keep the revs about the same
subaru gears had another batch of play dough r+p's according to another trans builder. I just can't see using them until they up their fucking game in the QC department
that and the 5 speed take too much cutting for my taste. setting up the hydraulic clutch is a bit of a pain in the ass as well. I've done 3 and they still shift like a dump truck, there is no getting around the 87 mile shift rod.
at the end of the day the 5 speed has the exact cruising rpms as a 4, the difference is you can't drop from 5 to 4 say at 50mph to blow around someone (well, you *can* but the jump in gears is pretty big)
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:56 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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Rancho got back to me too, they recommended the same gearing for the Westy too.
I was thinking of just staying with the stock 14" steel wheel/tire size. even if we went to 15's I would keep the same diameter for the speedo.
I'm not one of those that wants tiny low profile tires on a bus 
so now find a good donor, (auto or manual) and order the kennedy mounting kit and clutch.
What is the "go to" clutch set-up everyone is using with the 002?
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Convoy
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2011
Posts: 312
Location: San Clemente
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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If you stick with the 002 then a 200m Stage 1 or 2 Kennedy Clutch Kit. For my 2.2ej I use a Stage 1 as its close to stock feel and not too harsh for stop and go traffic.. also no clatter to report. Stage 2 may work better with more HP.
_________________
1974 Westfalia
2.2 Subie
Benco 002 |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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stage 1 for sure. it's pretty heavy, but not too offensive
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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Interesting, Kennedy recommended the stage 2 for the EJ2.5 in the westy
| Quote: |
A Stage 2 would be better suited for your set up, that clutch package is $179.00 (Clutch Kits include: Pressure plate, Street Organic clutch disc, throw out bearing and bolts.)
This combination is rated for 215 ft. lb. torque at the flywheel.
The Stage 1 for the same price is rated for 175 ft. lb. torque at the flywheel. |
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:01 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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I have the stage 1 in both the other air-cooled but they are a 2110cc and 1968cc, so 120-150 hp
I'll defer to the guys here that are running the Subi setup for an experienced answer before I order
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:01 am Post subject: Re: subaru swap questions |
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every swap I have done has a stage 1 and they are stiff. stage 2? better buy stock in clutch cables
i've roasted the 7" wide 17's on my bus a few times. no problems.
so to reiterate, i have done about 20 swaps all have used stage 1's other than the 5 speeds
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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