Another brake bleeding issue - UPDATE 11-1-2022

[Jonah_fiddler]

To preface, I've searched and read through multiple brake related posts here on the forum, but I am stumped - or maybe I just need to be enlightened.

Here is as much info as I can pass along as to what I've done so far and also what the issue is as it stands.

I initially replaced all 4 drum brake components on my 1970 Bug. This includes replacing the shoes, wheel cylinders, hardware, and drums for all 4 brakes. I also replaced both rear parking brake cables as one was seized. In addition, I replaced all soft lines for all 4 wheels. I have tightened all 4 drums to where they are difficult to turn per reading the forums.

Initially, I had some help from a buddy and I was bleeding the system using the 2 man system. I soon realized that I had a hole in the metal brake line connecting the MC to the rear brakes under the floorboard area. After removing the seats and pulling all of the old carpet out, I then replaced that and thought that I had all fittings tight.

As I started bleeding the brakes using the 1-man suction setup, I realized that I had a leak where the rear line connects to the T fitting. I tightened this up and have not seen a leak there yet. I mention this because I know that fluid was flowing rearward within the new metal brake line using this suction set up.

Fast forward to the last week or so of me being able to dedicate 20-30 minutes a day to wrapping this brake project up. I have had to use the 1-man suction bleeder method as I have been working from home and didn't have anyone available to help. Here is what I'm experiencing in using this method, starting from the right rear wheel (which Ive switched BTW after searching more on here, but which hasn't changed when doing the front left wheel). When I pump up to 15 psi and crack the bleeder, I am only get a spittle of fluid coming through the tube. When I say spittle, I mean that literally. It looks like a spittle of fluid and you can hear the spitting of it. I then started to pump the suction pump while the bleeder remained open, hoping to draw air out of the line, but there really was no change to the amount, or lack thereof, of fluid coming out of the line. I have done this for 30 minutes at a time daily for a week with no change to the flow rate coming out of the line.

This has been the same result when I switched to bleeding the front left after reading that this is the correct starting procedure.

Today, I was finally to recruit someone to help me do the 2 man pump set up. We tried the pump slowly 5 times, hold, crack the bleeder, and then release method first. Then we tried the crack the bleeder, press the pedal down slowly, tighten the bleeder, and then release the brake pedal method. We did this for 30 minutes or so on just the front left wheel without moving on to any other wheel. I was getting more fluid coming out the tube, and no spittle, but definitely not a steady stream no matter which method we used.

I guess after all of this, my question is how long can I expect to have to bleed one wheel to get air out of the lines or am I doing something wrong? Is this amount of air usual when replacing as many lines as I did? Ive gone though one big bottle of brake fluid so far and cant see any leaks anywhere under the car or at any fitting.

I'm at a loss and will take any and all advice at this point and am willing to try anything.

[jeffrey8164]

Get one of these.
You’ll spend more time hooking it up than it will take you to bleed all four.

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[Cusser]

I'd Search gravity bleeding
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[vamram]

Not sure if this will help but it sounds like you just have a lot of air still in the system.

I just put the brakes together on my '74 Super. I had emptied out the system as I needed to replace the front quarter panel. I reconnected the reservoir w/new lines, tightened the rear drums to where I could not turn the wheels. Front are disc. Then I filled the reservoir, left the top of it off, and let the system gravity bleed for like 30 minutes. I had some pedal, but not much. I closed the bleeders, topped off the reservoir, left it uncapped, then started pumping the brake pedal, not hard and fast, but steady. 30+ pumps, go back and again top off the reservoir - it was obviously dropping after pumping. I did this 2-3 times and now have a good pedal that gets solid just over an inch after pressing the pedal. The finishing touch will be the 2-person method w/my wife this weekend.
_________________
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Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Jonah_fiddler]

[Cusser]

[jinx758]

Howdy ...

After trying those hand pumpers & getting air from bleeder screws I made a positive pressure bleeder from a cheap HF garden sprayer that goes on the reservoir cap. That worked flawlessly but now I use my compressor on about 8 or 10psi with continuous pressure (I use a blowgun to set psi similar to a paint sprayer).

I didn't see where you said all shoes were tight against drum. This is critical as it allows pressure to build real quick instead of using pedal stroke to push shoes out.

Best luck ... stay safe

jinx
_________________
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[Cusser]

[doug bugg]

Last winter I did a disc brake conversion and I replaced the front brake lines and hoses as well. It took my wife and I forty minutes before I finally starting getting DOT 3 coming out of the bleeder valves. I'm not accustomed for bleeding to take so long so I was sure that I had a leak somewhere. I had no leak, it just took that long for the fluid to get to the valves.

[vamram]

[Jonah_fiddler]

Thanks for everyone’s input on this, I really appreciate it.

Here’s an update for today.

I bought a pneumatic bleeder and hooked it up to my air compressor. Made sure that all 4 drums were still adjusted tight and then started in the drivers side front. Unfortunately, it’s the same result. For pushing an hour, I’ve been trying to bleed the drivers front with only spittle of brake fluid coming out. I can’t seem to get a good stream at all.

I assume at this point, I must have a leak in the system somewhere. I’ve checked all bleeder screws and soft/hard line connections and I don’t see any leaks.

Does this mean I should swap the MC out to rule out the last component? I have a new one already.

Thanks again guys.

[vamram]

Other than not getting a pedal, are you going thru brake fluid like it's on sale? It should take less than one of those typical quart+ brake fluid containers to fill the system. If you're going thru a lot of fluid, check your hard line going thru the car, and the front of the pedal pushrod where it goes into the MC for signs of leaking fluid. I've had the MC go bad and dump fluid into the napoleon's hat and floor in front of the pedal.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Jonah_fiddler]

[vamram]

Just for fun and games, if you have no leaks, try my method.

Make sure all 8 shoes are tight and you can't turn any of the drums, bleeders closed.
Open the reservoir.
Fill it.
Leave it uncapped.
Without force, smooth normal brake push of the brake pedal to the floor, back up a bit slower, repeat oh 30 times.
Go check to see if the reservoir needs to be topped off, even a little. Do it, repeat this cycle oh 4-5 times.

If you're not having to top off the reservoir after each cycle, and/or you're not getting a pedal, i'm a bit at a loss as to the next step.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Starbucket]

The bleeder threads are a loose fit as they seal on the bottom so wrap the threads with Teflon thread tape to prevent the suction gun from drawing air from the bleeder threads instead of the brake lines. If you replaced the brake light switches they could be a leak source. Note, remove the Teflon tape when done.

[Jonah_fiddler]

[doug bugg]

I’ve read this thread five times and I too am at a loss. I don’t know what else to do if this fluid isn’t showing up SOMEwhere. Just curious, you said “bottles”. Were these pints or quarts of DOT 3?

[Jonah_fiddler]

[Starbucket]

You have tried all the normal bleeding techniques so it's time for the abnormal method of getting the brakes blead. Go to your local hobby shop and buy a glow fuel bulb and some silicone tubbing that will fit your bleeders tight then suck a bulb full of brake fluid from the mc reservoir, crack open a bleeder and squeeze the brake fluid into the wheel cyl. (have a helper watch for bubbles in the reservoir) repeat until no more bubbles then close the bleeder, repeat until all wheels have been filled, now if needed regular brake bleeding will work.

[ashman40]