subaru swap questions

[W1K1]

[Vee Dub Nut]

[W1K1]

On to the drivetrain mounts, since the 71 bay transaxle has just a nose cone mount, and is supported by the motor on the other side, is there a recommended engine mount for the 71?

Subarugears has this setup to run, I'm guessing it uses the stock engine hanger off the donor?

Or dimensions to fab a mount like Skills has in his thread, which also leaves the question of bolting through the frame member. Subarugears has the sleeves to keep you from crushing the frame, it that something that is an issue?

or the busaru mount
https://www.busaru.com/busaruparts/crossmember
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[Convoy]

Never bought anything from Busaru so no first hand experience, though the mount appears logical for typical exhaust and radiator line routing.
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1974 Westfalia
2.2 Subie
Benco 002

[W1K1]

from the Busaru video posted it looks like a sleeve goes in the holes on frame before the bolts go in
https://youtu.be/C1fgZb9EmK4
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[deathman68]

You can see how these bolt up in the pics above. I used the stock Subaru engine carrier.

What I can tell you is that you need to be proactively thinking about your exhaust setup. I will be running the RMW exhaust setup, but have significant doubts about the heat transfer to my coolant pipes. I would probably go for a custom mount setup that lets you move the exhaust off to one side of the engine so it's not directly below your water pump. Just my .02, but if you wait a few more months (year), I will have it running.
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1973 Riviera “Annie”
Build Thread: 1973 Riviera+Subaru 2.5+5 Speed
EJ25+5 Speed Conversion Part/Cost Tracker

[Vee Dub Nut]

I'm using the Busaru bar. For the money, I felt like it was a good buy. No special tubes or inserts in my frame, nor does the Busaru bar come with anything (or at least it didn't). Just don't go crazy tightening it all up and crush the frame. I've had zero issues with mine installed this way.

May I also suggest you spend some time doing more research? There is TONS of information in this forum alone. Just go read through some of the swap threads in this forum. A lot of what you are asking is basic questions, and the info is very clearly out there already. With a little reading, you'll likely answer questions you didn't even know you had yet, and be miles ahead.

EDIT: I'll second what Deathman68 said above. Consider your exhaust arrangement, as that can interfere with the engine mounting. I'm also running the RMW header. No issues with coolant temp for me, but I know others have had different experiences. Its all in the combo.
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Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006

67 Beetle (TBD)

74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[W1K1]

[Shonandb]

I went with the Busaru bar with stock Subaru mounts and used Small Car's exhaust header with a Vanagon catalytic converter and a Bugpack muffler and no heat deflector. 10,000 miles and it still sounds just right.

First Start Video - Not pretty but...

https://vimeo.com/549479777
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76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image

[alaskadan]

I did a couple bay conversions with small cars engine brackets and vanagon engine carriers. Just cut the ends off and welded on 1/4" steel plates that bolt to the frame.

[W1K1]

Another question : Belly radiator setup
Not a lot of pictures of how people have run the piping.
I've seen a few threads that show the radiator and mounting brackets , and the radiator mounted, but not where people have run the tubing.

there is a series on Youtube (Garage time) of a canuck with a splitty that welded tubes in the crossmember to keep the tubing within the frame rails

I've seen the Spal fans are a good investment, and having a manual switch doesn't hurt

What about the radiator? there are all sorts of different welded configurations I've seen on different threads, Veedubnut has been through a couple of belly radiators and fans, Skills has tried the engine compartment, and gone to the belly mount.
Is there an off the shelf proven radiator to start with? Or is everyone just buying and modifying the biggest radiator that fits in the frame rails?

And I'm assuming you're cutting the heater tube out for clearance between the rails.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[W1K1]

oops
found this thread on radiators, weird how Google works better that the samba search
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7934779
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[Shonandb]

I ran HD reinforced exhaust hose approved for the materials and temps and ran them between the body and the torsion tube up to the first crossbrace and connected to the rad rubber hose via barbed connectors.

I simply went with my donors's rad as a belly mount and it has been fine other than 1 time pulling my trailer in the mtns in 95 F temps. It didn't overheat, just had to slow down to 65 mph to keep the coolant temp under 205 F.

I removed the heater pipe and added a flexible duct that goes around the rad. I used a temp switch that turns my rad fans on at 95 C and back off again at 85C. I also wired in a manual toggle switch.

My goal was to use as many of the donor components as I could so mine is on the low end of costs but also really looks DIY unlike some of the others here who have made theirs "look like it should be there".
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76 Westy with a 2.5L Subaru SOHC + Vanagon (010) Automatic Transaxle
Build & Trip Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758760
Previous 1973 Panel Bus:
Click to view image

[alaskadan]

I had two custom rads welded up. One was steel and one was aluminum. An inch narrower than the space between frame rails with a mounting flange to bolt through into the frame. Cross flows with the one port on each side pointing back. Connected with marine wet exhaust hose. The suby fan mounted on the bottom worked fine in both cases. About 400 bucks each.

[metahacker]

the Busaru engine hanger is fine. you drill holes in your frame and put bolts through it and the bar, and it mates to the OE Subaru mounts. it's not the most sophisticated thing in the world (e.g. a bar that resembles the stock VW late Bay hanger and attaches at the same points would be cooler, perhaps) .. and requires some hand-fitment and discipline with regards to alignment. since you are drilling the holes yourself, you can use either the earlier angled Subaru rubber engine mounts or the later ones that would mount with a more "level" appearing fastener arrangement.

engine bay radiators will only work if you actually create a pressure fed ducting solution feeding off the intakes (or something like an added scoop as our pimpdaddy NACA duct bro here has demonstrated). the whole business of cramming two honda civic ebay aluminum radiators in your engine bay and hoping for the best doesn't really work as it should (without something to force air through them). people put fans on them and it kind of sort of works sort of, and the fans end up running a lot (or all the time), but the setups that actually do work as a properly engineered car would (and don't blow past the thermostat set temp range on the highway) are well thought out and ducted.

i really dont like the engine bay rad placement on a camper. the engine bay is so perfect for cramming in multiple lithium 100Ah batteries without having to steal from the precious interior volume.

vancafe (aka rocky mountain westy before they branched out for #vanlife marketing reasons) used to show a kit that seemed to be setup properly for engine bay radiators. my friend was running it and it was working ok for him. his car was the one pictured on their site - but those pages & photos seem to have been take down. it had a lot of aluminum plate work to form a full ducting system off the engine bay intake grills through the radiators. it looked smart, basically unlike 99% of the other engine bay radiator setups ive seen on a vw.

generally speaking, everyone swaps subarus into vws just hanging radiators in various places and hoping that wind blowing around them is going to do something...and end up with the fans running most of the time

most people doing it aren't engineers, so it's understandable for a first try.... but ...

if you look at a factory water cooled car, air is forced into the car and then doesn't have much choice of where to go except through the radiator. that's where having a radiator as the front face of the vehicle (e.g. why cars have grills in front) works great. this is the key concept to understand about implementing your own water cooling solution. the car can do okay around town with a crappy set up (and cut electric fans on for idle)... but when you are pushing the big meatloaf down the highway at 80 it will creep and creep up in temp if you don't have a proper setup to force the air through.

the smallcar underbelly ducted radiator setup looks like would actually work (although i can't say it looks very elegant). there's at least a strategy there with regards to airflow.

busaru makes an under belly kit. but it's like hanging a junkyard dodge radiator underneath your car and hoping for the best. it tries to create a vacuum to pull air out of the radiator as it passes by. i can tell you from first-hand experience that it doesn't work properly and there doesn't seem to be any engineering to it. but it will work if you drive it like a grandma on the highway to avoid overheating. i do not recommend it and my conversations with busaru about it do not seem to reflect any understanding or strategy there in terms of the ariflow dynamics.

the fellows speed shop guys in europe seem to have a much better looking version of the same concept smallcar is trying to implement.

kind of ironic to swap to a water cooled engine in a bus and have cooling issues, IMO. but they seem common.

RADIATORS WORK PROPERLY ON THE HIGHWAY WHEN YOU FORCE AIR THROUGH THEM
so whatever the strategy is - watch a couple youtube videos on aerodynamics, race car ducting fabrication, etc. - be conscious about "where is the air coming in" and how to "trap" it and "how is it coming back out"

just having a radiator hanging out somewhere will do some heat transfer, but the air flow will generally do everything it can to AVOID going through the radiator.

for your plumbing, stainless and galvanized/zinc piping should be avoided. mild steel or aluminum are ideal. this would be from a bimetallic corrosion perspective.

also some people are into those throttle body reversers...
you can also just flip the intake manifold around. YMMV, particularly if you want to keep the EGR as-is on an EZ30R, for example.

everyone seems to love running that Kennedy header. It works but from a performance engineering perspective, and my first-hand opinion, it's a piece of shit. The way it is put together seems only driven by convenience (check out the pic linked below, look at how those right hand pipes join and the total lack of attempt at creating a proper set of 4-2-1 lengths and merges in the overall design).
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e49a3e_fe115159...f7~mv2.jpg

The vancafe one is a little better. But neither seem ideal. The Fellows one looks pretty nice.

and although you didnt ask - some other points

i like the OE Bus EFI tank, pump and filter with 5/16" Gates barricade hose (and the short length of .. hmm 1/2" ? needed at the filter). It will fit the 7mm stuff on the Bus confidently and is the native size for the Subaru. If you want to be baller, asking Red9 for their 17g tank with a 6AN fitting would be dreamy, with a complete PTFE/braided fuel line (and filter) setup from there out, if you're so inclined.

As for motors.... all the US VW guys seem to love chasing down clapped out junkyard bullshit subarus that were trashed for 250K miles by soccer moms and then spending months of their precious lives dealing with all the bullshit of picking them apart and putting them back together again in the veedub

seems like a fun hobby but in my not so humble opinion - JDM front cuts are the only way to go if you're not going to do something epic like using a 0 mile brand new dealer block. JDM swaps (from reputable vendors that are actually getting japanese stuff and not random junk from other markets) generally always have <50K miles on them and are clean AF. and im not talking out of my ass here ive had multiple JDM swapped cars in the past. those engines coming from japan are the best. and you usually get the complete harness and all the other shit you could want - transmission, axles, ECU, etc. with it. and they'll typically be obscenely cheap on top of it all...... the argument that they are somehow obscure, esoteric or not practical to work with in the states isn't really valid (unless you're talking about an extreme edge case like the EE20 Subaru TDI that was never sold in theUS), either. perhaps lack of knowledge/experience on the part of the installer, sure. but the entire japanese car tuning scene in the states is centered around JDM swapping....

I think the obsession with the earlier SOHC stuff makes sense from a practicality perspective but the EZ30R is really the motor that belongs in a Bus. It has the torque and HP output to really make the blasphemization of non-aircooling an unquestionably worthy pursuit. People haven't quite come to grips with CAN-BUS, the immoblizer and the Drive-by-wire yet... but hey, in due time. It's less than 1" larger than the EJ25 and <50lbs heavier... so there's no legitimate gripe there on 6 vs 4.

a MAP based SOHC pre-CAN EJ25 is relatively straightforward and practical

the idea of a 1.1x to 0.7x 3rd to 4th with a VW tranny seems a little excessive and possibly unpleasant
i think 3K RPM at 70 MPH with the NA ~170HP 4 banger would be a safe bet, IMO .. and if you can pull off taller than that, you definitely won't be unhappy with the reduction in NVH. for a baseline, the stock T4 was making about 100lbft of torque. you can see the torque for a SOHC EJ25 seems OK starting around 2600 RPM. below that will be a bit luggy...and 3400-ish looks pretty awesome
http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/Subaru/Dyno%20curves/SOHC%20vs%20DOHC.jpg
https://www.subaruforester.org/threads/does-anyone-have-a-real-hp-torque-curve-for-a-2-5-n-a.34099/

with regards to Kennedy clutches, i would recommend using the least aggressive setup you can get away with in a bus. i have not been a fan of street driving a bus with a KEP stage 2. the Ron Lummus "Street 6" REV6 multiplate setup with the centrifugal fingers and two organic discs looks like the best of all worlds

some people like to put their subarus at lower rpms, some like higher (particularly big heavy vanagon syncro dudes who run majorly loaded down, or people who are towing). you should think about your intended use, view a dyno chart for your particular engine (paying careful attention, specifically, to the torque curve). if you want to be as "fast" as possible, you want the most aggressive gearing, sure....but, if it's not going to do anything extreme like towing, i think that you will probably enjoy the lowest RPM that you can manage...and gear spacing like a factory car.

i found the EJ25 to be a little more buzzy than i expected on the highway
i didnt mind similar RPMs from a loud racket airplane esque VW Type 4 engine
or silky smooth motorcycle RPM loving Honda VTEC engines
YMMV, but those are the 3 'high rpm' highway cruisers that come to mind from my own personal experience...the subaru was not my favorite at elevated RPM..that said, a B16A or B18C5 honda feels smooth as silk at 7000 RPM, and a Bus blasting down the highway at 4500 RPM with all its noises is super awesome in its own unique and amazing way ;-)

[W1K1]

Next question: who is the preferred harness modification vendor ? not the cheapest, someone who does good work for a fair price.


I've seen Autoventures mentioned before, most of the Subaru swap vendors have the service available, Modern Bay, Busaru, Small car, etc. Although they may be outsourcing them to someone too.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[Shonandb]

[curtp07]

Engine mount. Fellows Speed shop. Took about an hour to install. Perfect.

Exhaust. Fellows. Again, no install issues. So far 200 miles. 70 degree day no hot spots on the engine. No need for heat shield like skills said. I’ll be posting more info on my thread.

Radiator setup. Again Fellows for the win. You may pay a little more but it’s quality materials and all in one kit. No temp issues testing so far. Dual SPAL fans with a dual relay setup. Perfect.

Harness. Jeff at autoventures. Perfect.

Throttle cable. RJS Enterprises. Perfect.

Transmission. Benco. Perfect.

I preferred to buy as much in kit form as possible. 1. I don’t have the tools to do custom work. 2. No space 3. No lift..spend as little time as possible under the bus. 4. Time is money…get the bus on the road. 5. Easy to pickup extra fun work trips to pay the increased cost of prebuilt kits…there’s the downside…I’m sure it is more $$$
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Subaru

[W1K1]

Lol Curtp07

I just asked a couple questions on you thread before I came here, and see you posted
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap