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Official Fuel injection questions thread
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jcptillman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

I just rebuilt the engine for my 77 beetle and getting ready to crank it over to build oil pressure before first start.

I recall that I can remove the fuse to disable the coil, is there some other way I should be disabling the coil?

Also, what is the best way to safely disable the ECU to keep the injectors from firing?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Pull the green wire off the coil (#1 terminal), it does what you want in a 2 for 1 way. There is no fuse for the coil or FI system, but disabling the points signal does all you need.

Just remember to put it back when it's actually time for starting, or you'll be frustrated why it doesn't start.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Hello, all!

Trying to get my '75 FI beetle back on the road, and have been running into some issues. The results of the troubleshooting I have done so far is not making sense to me, so I'm not sure if there is something I am missing and was hoping someone would be able to help make sense of it. Any expertise would be greatly appreciated!

Little bit of history/what I've done so far:
Car drove well, then we moved and got it shipped across country about 4 years ago.
I drove it a few times the first year we were here, and then it sat for a few years. When I tried to start it after sitting, it had a dead battery (replaced), and then a dead starter (also replaced). While changing the starter, I found that the car had a hard start relay, and after a talk with and recommendation from the local VW shop, I removed it. I then isolated the fault to the fuel system. I understand that the FI system can be a little touchy and complicated, and so between frustration and lack of time to work on it, the car sat for another year.

I am now again trying to figure out what the issue is. The problem is still with the fuel system (there is spark at the plugs), and here is what I've done recently:

- Emptied / Refilled fuel tank
- Replaced fuel filter
- Replaced fuel injectors
- Tested contacts at fuel pump (power is on when cranking the engine but no other time.
- Tested fuel pressure on the engine side of the pressure regulator (no pressure)
- Tested fuel pressure just downline of the fuel pump, near the passenger front tire (no pressure)
- Bench tested the pump with a battery and some wires - it seemed to work well - it whirred and spit out fuel pretty easily.
- Checked the undercarriage for any obvious sign of fuel leaks - found none

So at this point, I'm thinking the issue is one of two things: either I messed up the FI system when I removed the hard start relay, or I missed something when I was doing the other tests. I don't remember how the hard start relay/starter was hooked up before, but there is only one small wire available to go to the starter. There were also no obvious leaks when doing the pressure tests.

I know this might be a little long, but any insight would help!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Welcome!
Your next step is to poke a chopstick into the rectangular hole inside the air cleaner and move the springy flap in the air flow meter (AFM), if you do that when the key is turned on you should hear the fuel pump and get pressure.
Report back with your findings.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

OK experts, I need your help again.
'77 FI Super Beetle Convertible recovered from an engine fire last summer.
Pulled everything back together and got new electrical connections from the module into the engine compartment:

Problem - I just finished driving it about 15 miles with no problems. Parked it for 15 minutes and now it doesn't fire. The engine turns over but never ignites.
I've done the following troubleshooting -

Key on - AFM Chopstick test - Fuel Pump engages
I'm getting spark at the distributor and at #4 spark plug

It almost acts like it's flooded. However, when we pulled the spark plug on #4 cylinder, it was dry.

Checked the voltage on the injector #4 and it registered 12 volts - 8 volts while cranking.

No cracks in the S boot or any of the incoming vacuum hoses.

2nd temp sensor is brand new and wires are intact.

I'm stumped. As I said, I drove it last week and it was fine. A little cooler weather last week to be sure. I did have this happen to me once before, but the engine was cold. It wouldn't start and I was ready to convert it over to carb. Actually had the parts on order from Jbugs. Went out and tried it the next day and it started. I cancelled the carb kit. I'm at a loss. A buddy suggested vapor lock in the fuel line?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

FI doesn't vapor lock.

Try a spoonfull of gas down the S boot and see if it attempts to cough, if not then pull the plugs and air it out. It's either too much gas, or not enough.

Lots of things can fail only when warm, since you tried the AFM flap and heard the pump it's not likely that. And since you saw a spark while cranking the ignition switch and coil are low on the list right now too. Could be the TS2 over leaning, try unplugging it next time it quits hot and see if it starts (unplugging it makes the system go full rich).
Another thing to look into is fuel pressure, does it bleed off fast when stopped?, could a CSV or injector be leaking and flooding it?

Did you have the tank out?, it's easy to kink the lines under it if you don't have a helper pull on them as you lower it into it's hole.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
FI doesn't vapor lock.

Try a spoonfull of gas down the S boot and see if it attempts to cough, if not then pull the plugs and air it out. It's either too much gas, or not enough.

Lots of things can fail only when warm, since you tried the AFM flap and heard the pump it's not likely that. And since you saw a spark while cranking the ignition switch and coil are low on the list right now too. Could be the TS2 over leaning, try unplugging it next time it quits hot and see if it starts (unplugging it makes the system go full rich).
Another thing to look into is fuel pressure, does it bleed off fast when stopped?, could a CSV or injector be leaking and flooding it?

Did you have the tank out?, it's easy to kink the lines under it if you don't have a helper pull on them as you lower it into it's hole.


Thanks - We did try Ether (!) into the boot and got nothing while trying to start it.

I have not had the fuel tank out of the car. I've been driving it around for a couple months with only these two instances.


Will look at the TS2 and fuel pressure to see if that is the cause. Question - If the FI or CSV leaks after the engine shuts down, wouldn't I have the same starting problem every time? Or at least more often than this?

Is it maybe an AAR problem? That tested out electrically, but that was all during initial rebuild.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
Your next step is to poke a chopstick into the rectangular hole inside the air cleaner and move the springy flap in the air flow meter (AFM), if you do that when the key is turned on you should hear the fuel pump and get pressure.
Report back with your findings.


Okay - I'm back! I had to get the fuel pump hooked back up after the bench test... I move the flap in the AFM, and nothing from the fuel pump.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

cfroderman wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
FI doesn't vapor lock.

Try a spoonfull of gas down the S boot and see if it attempts to cough, if not then pull the plugs and air it out. It's either too much gas, or not enough.

Lots of things can fail only when warm, since you tried the AFM flap and heard the pump it's not likely that. And since you saw a spark while cranking the ignition switch and coil are low on the list right now too. Could be the TS2 over leaning, try unplugging it next time it quits hot and see if it starts (unplugging it makes the system go full rich).
Another thing to look into is fuel pressure, does it bleed off fast when stopped?, could a CSV or injector be leaking and flooding it?

Did you have the tank out?, it's easy to kink the lines under it if you don't have a helper pull on them as you lower it into it's hole.


Thanks - We did try Ether (!) into the boot and got nothing while trying to start it.

I have not had the fuel tank out of the car. I've been driving it around for a couple months with only these two instances.


Will look at the TS2 and fuel pressure to see if that is the cause. Question - If the FI or CSV leaks after the engine shuts down, wouldn't I have the same starting problem every time? Or at least more often than this?

Is it maybe an AAR problem? That tested out electrically, but that was all during initial rebuild.

A partially flooded engine is easy to start cold, but very hard when it's warm, and it could be related to certain conditions or time sitting.


See if it's bleeding down, it may just be a failing check valve in the pump, that's not a big deal since it primes instantly when you crank. But if one or more of the injectors is dribbling that'll flood it.
Also don't completely rule out weak spark or low compression when hot, just because you saw a spark doesn't mean it was adequate to light the fire.
When was the last valve adjustment?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

papabear4761 wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
Your next step is to poke a chopstick into the rectangular hole inside the air cleaner and move the springy flap in the air flow meter (AFM), if you do that when the key is turned on you should hear the fuel pump and get pressure.
Report back with your findings.


Okay - I'm back! I had to get the fuel pump hooked back up after the bench test... I move the flap in the AFM, and nothing from the fuel pump.

OK, now we can narrow it down a little.....
The two primary suspects are the double relay (DR), or the AFM.
Test the AFM by probing terminals #36 & #39, there should be no continuity static, and continuity when the flap is a few mm off it's stop.
Another thing to look at just for kicks is the negative battery terminal, is there a small brown wire attached to it?, is it making good contact?. How about the white(ish) ground wires on the top of the alternator between the battery post and the fan shroud?, screwed down to the alternator body and not mistakenly on the D+ terminal?, making good contact?

If all that checks out we'll move on to DR diagnosis.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
papabear4761 wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
Your next step is to poke a chopstick into the rectangular hole inside the air cleaner and move the springy flap in the air flow meter (AFM), if you do that when the key is turned on you should hear the fuel pump and get pressure.
Report back with your findings.


Okay - I'm back! I had to get the fuel pump hooked back up after the bench test... I move the flap in the AFM, and nothing from the fuel pump.

OK, now we can narrow it down a little.....
The two primary suspects are the double relay (DR), or the AFM.
Test the AFM by probing terminals #36 & #39, there should be no continuity static, and continuity when the flap is a few mm off it's stop.
Another thing to look at just for kicks is the negative battery terminal, is there a small brown wire attached to it?, is it making good contact?. How about the white(ish) ground wires on the top of the alternator between the battery post and the fan shroud?, screwed down to the alternator body and not mistakenly on the D+ terminal?, making good contact?

If all that checks out we'll move on to DR diagnosis.


Okay - Update on what I have checked since last post:

- Potentiometer at 36 & 39 - Continuity when flap is opened; none when not
- I did check the white wires on the alternator and the brown one on the negative terminal - they all seem snug and I see no obvious breaks. With the wires on the alternator, I'm not exactly sure where the D+ terminal is, but the white wires on the alternator have not been touched since the car last ran, so I suspect they are in the correct place, though I could be wrong.
- I have also ran the procedure for checking the DR from the Haynes manual:
- One terminal to ground (85) and probe the following:
- With key off, probe 88Z and 88Y
- With key on, probe 86C and 88B
- While cranking the engine, probe 86A and 88D
All of these had good voltage.

Also, as a point of clarification, when I removed the hard start relay, I also removed the wires from the hard start relay, and so I'm not sure if I am missing a wire that is supposed to go to the starter. My concern is that the previous owner had it rigged up some way to get the FI system to work with the hard start relay in place. I currently have 2 large red wires going to the starter and a smaller brown wire (I assume this is the ignition wire). Do you think I am missing a wire from the other small terminal on the solenoid at this point? And where would it go to? If it were missing, wouldn't the tests at the Double Relay not be good? I'm just not sure, but I do appreciate your help!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

There should be a red wire between the battery terminal on the starter and 88y & 88z on the DR plug, those terminals should have constant power. But since you said you got a fuel pump while cranking I figured there must be power there since that's where the DR gets the power to supply the system.
The other wire from the starter is on the small spade terminal where the red/black #50 connects, once again since you got pump when cranking it sounds like it's OK.

So if the AFM shows continuity when poked yet the fuel pump doesn't work it must be the relay itself, or a terminal has pushed back out of the plug on it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
cfroderman wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
FI doesn't vapor lock.

Try a spoonfull of gas down the S boot and see if it attempts to cough, if not then pull the plugs and air it out. It's either too much gas, or not enough.

Lots of things can fail only when warm, since you tried the AFM flap and heard the pump it's not likely that. And since you saw a spark while cranking the ignition switch and coil are low on the list right now too. Could be the TS2 over leaning, try unplugging it next time it quits hot and see if it starts (unplugging it makes the system go full rich).
Another thing to look into is fuel pressure, does it bleed off fast when stopped?, could a CSV or injector be leaking and flooding it?

Did you have the tank out?, it's easy to kink the lines under it if you don't have a helper pull on them as you lower it into it's hole.


Thanks - We did try Ether (!) into the boot and got nothing while trying to start it.

I have not had the fuel tank out of the car. I've been driving it around for a couple months with only these two instances.


Will look at the TS2 and fuel pressure to see if that is the cause. Question - If the FI or CSV leaks after the engine shuts down, wouldn't I have the same starting problem every time? Or at least more often than this?

Is it maybe an AAR problem? That tested out electrically, but that was all during initial rebuild.

A partially flooded engine is easy to start cold, but very hard when it's warm, and it could be related to certain conditions or time sitting.


See if it's bleeding down, it may just be a failing check valve in the pump, that's not a big deal since it primes instantly when you crank. But if one or more of the injectors is dribbling that'll flood it.
Also don't completely rule out weak spark or low compression when hot, just because you saw a spark doesn't mean it was adequate to light the fire.
When was the last valve adjustment?


More investigative work done. Fuel pressure is 37 and does not bleed out after trying to start it. On a whim, I pinched down the fuel line and got it to fire but wouldn't sustain. Is it an idle issue? Any other thoughts? I've not had a valve adjustment done since the compression appeared to be fine. Again, I hadn't had this happen other than one other time. Sitting allowed it to start. Not this time. Vacuum issue? I'm at a loss which is why I'm on here! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

37 is a bit high, I wonder if the return line is pinched or blocked somewhere?

Perhaps pinching the line allowed it to drop down enough to make a burnable mixture for for a few seconds?

Another experiment would be to ground the harness end of the wire to the TS2 and see how it behaves, that'll force the system into full lean.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
37 is a bit high, I wonder if the return line is pinched or blocked somewhere?

Perhaps pinching the line allowed it to drop down enough to make a burnable mixture for for a few seconds?

Another experiment would be to ground the harness end of the wire to the TS2 and see how it behaves, that'll force the system into full lean.


OK. More info. Grounded the TS2 and it started and ran like a champ. Also, it started with the S boot loose and it ran as well. So, too rich of a mix and a faulty NEW TS2 appears to be the issue. Follow up question, can I ground this thing for a 3 mile drive to get it back to my house? Followed by a recommendation for a better TS2.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

cfroderman wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
37 is a bit high, I wonder if the return line is pinched or blocked somewhere?

Perhaps pinching the line allowed it to drop down enough to make a burnable mixture for for a few seconds?

Another experiment would be to ground the harness end of the wire to the TS2 and see how it behaves, that'll force the system into full lean.


OK. More info. Grounded the TS2 and it started and ran like a champ. Also, it started with the S boot loose and it ran as well. So, too rich of a mix and a faulty NEW TS2 appears to be the issue. Follow up question, can I ground this thing for a 3 mile drive to get it back to my house? Followed by a recommendation for a better TS2.

Excellent!

I can't see why a 3 mile drive could hurt anything, avoid the highway if possible.
Before you throw the TS2 under the bus confirm the wire between it and the ECU is intact and the contact at the big ECU plug is making good contact, maybe the act of fiddling with it to ground it restored continuity?. I can't recommend any particular replacement brand, they either work or they don't it seems, and most appear to all come from the same factory.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
There should be a red wire between the battery terminal on the starter and 88y & 88z on the DR plug, those terminals should have constant power. But since you said you got a fuel pump while cranking I figured there must be power there since that's where the DR gets the power to supply the system.
The other wire from the starter is on the small spade terminal where the red/black #50 connects, once again since you got pump when cranking it sounds like it's OK.

So if the AFM shows continuity when poked yet the fuel pump doesn't work it must be the relay itself, or a terminal has pushed back out of the plug on it.


Thank you for your help! I was able to isolate the issue - Turns out although the test light lit when checking the fuel pump, it was only getting 5 Volts at the pump. Unplugged the power to the fuel pump from 88D and ran a makeshift wire from there to the fuel pump - and she started right up! Now I just have to figure out why she won't stay running with the AFM plug in - Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

papabear4761 wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
There should be a red wire between the battery terminal on the starter and 88y & 88z on the DR plug, those terminals should have constant power. But since you said you got a fuel pump while cranking I figured there must be power there since that's where the DR gets the power to supply the system.
The other wire from the starter is on the small spade terminal where the red/black #50 connects, once again since you got pump when cranking it sounds like it's OK.

So if the AFM shows continuity when poked yet the fuel pump doesn't work it must be the relay itself, or a terminal has pushed back out of the plug on it.


Thank you for your help! I was able to isolate the issue - Turns out although the test light lit when checking the fuel pump, it was only getting 5 Volts at the pump. Unplugged the power to the fuel pump from 88D and ran a makeshift wire from there to the fuel pump - and she started right up! Now I just have to figure out why she won't stay running with the AFM plug in - Smile


Vacum leak(s).
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:52 am    Post subject: EGR Light Black Box Question Reply with quote

Which side of the EGR black box does the long speedo cable connect to? Side with reset button or opposite side?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Light Black Box Question Reply with quote

Maltboy! wrote:
Which side of the EGR black box does the long speedo cable connect to? Side with reset button or opposite side?


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