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Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:

Yep, measuring at the rim. I thought it might be somewhat out of specification, by your reaction take it is really out of specification. Over 250,000 miles on the rebuild and can't ask Dad if used a new pump, might be the original to the case.


Then it looks like you are saying there is 1cm or .4 of an inch play between the drive gear tang and the cam shaft slot.

Adriel Rowley wrote:

Okay, apparently I am not understanding. I thought the pump had to be replaced when installing the spin on filter?

The kit does come with a new pump, why I should have checked the camshaft gear before ordering.


Yes, the stock pump must be replaced with the entire oil filter pump. Thing is if you can not remove the stock pump, and you are going to need the beetle running now. Then you should sort out how worn that stock pump is before just putting back on the stock cover plate. That way you know how bad it is, and that in turn tells you do you need to replace it ASAP or can you wait a few months.
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Adriel Rowley
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Adriel Rowley wrote:

Yep, measuring at the rim. I thought it might be somewhat out of specification, by your reaction take it is really out of specification. Over 250,000 miles on the rebuild and can't ask Dad if used a new pump, might be the original to the case.


Then it looks like you are saying there is 1cm or .4 of an inch play between the drive gear tang and the cam shaft slot.


I said with the gears in and at the tip of the tooth. If I knew the distance from the tang to the tooth, simple trigonometry would produce the amount of play at the tang.


Eric&Barb wrote:

Adriel Rowley wrote:

Okay, apparently I am not understanding. I thought the pump had to be replaced when installing the spin on filter?

The kit does come with a new pump, why I should have checked the camshaft gear before ordering.


Yes, the stock pump must be replaced with the entire oil filter pump. Thing is if you can not remove the stock pump, and you are going to need the beetle running now. Then you should sort out how worn that stock pump is before just putting back on the stock cover plate. That way you know how bad it is, and that in turn tells you do you need to replace it ASAP or can you wait a few months.


I have inquired if my friend can take me to the storage unit so I can look for the clear plastic file box containing a brand new oil pump puller Dad never took out of the package. As I said, was gently prying, far less than the puller produces. If not found for some odd reason, then put it in the Heritage order, they have the rubber seals for the doghouse tins, put it in my order. Figure try the the seals, under a tenner, then report back.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

What a morning this was!

Donald took me over to the storage unit, took slightly longer to find the file box, though couldn't find the 6 volt generator with the backing plate. He decided to have me look in the garage where Ruby is staying, didn't find it.

Instead of shutting the roll up door, I walked out of the man door, closed it, and when I got to the truck realized the roll up door was still open. d'oh! Laughing Clearly not thinking clearly.

Donald took me back to the storage unit, he changed his mind and was going to help me, got him a picture, and showed it to him. He saw a box of Volkswagen parts I thought I knew what was in there, found the missing battery mat.

Then walked over to the wall where a few things stacked, picked up a pair of Mercedes grills and looking only at them, saying already had looked over here, Donald exclaims there it is. Sure enough, there was the generator and backing plate. d'oh! Laughing I laughed hard a couple times. Sure glad he didn't drop me off as he had planned to, partly as I end up going and getting involved in organizing and partly because a fresh brain and eyes found it.

Went back to the garage, Donald wanted me to do something, I was in no shape to mess with the trim, so pulled the pump. It was an odd felling using a tool Dad bought 30 plus years ago and never used it. The pump was really stuck, took a lot of pressure to even start to get it to budge, so the way to go. Oh and thankfully it is the 1970 and earlier camshaft gear, whew. Wear does not look bad at all.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



After this, Donald took us over to Ace, didn't have M6 studs, M6 bolts not long enough (didn't think 5mm be enough into the case), so got 100mm M6 all thread. Plus, some weatherstripping foam for the oil cooler.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:
The pump was really stuck, took a lot of pressure to even start to get it to budge, so the way to go.


Did you loosen up the bolts/nuts in the engine case, above and just below the oil pump hole??
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Adriel Rowley wrote:
The pump was really stuck, took a lot of pressure to even start to get it to budge, so the way to go.


Did you loosen up the bolts/nuts in the engine case, above and just below the oil pump hole??


Yes, I did.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:
Yes, I did.


Good! If there is corrosion in there making the opening slightly smaller. You might try a little Scotch-Brite to just barely polish it out. Then oil up the opening before installing the new pump body.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Adriel Rowley wrote:
Yes, I did.


Good! If there is corrosion in there making the opening slightly smaller. You might try a little Scotch-Brite to just barely polish it out. Then oil up the opening before installing the new pump body.


Oil in the opening, the case looks corroded.

Shoot, I have some grey in the storage unit somewhere. Would red or green be too course? Think

I was planning to use a light coat of copper grease.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:


Oil in the opening, the case looks corroded.

Shoot, I have some grey in the storage unit somewhere. Would red or green be too course? Think

I was planning to use a light coat of copper grease.


As long as you use the Scotch-Brite by hand and do not go crazy with it, the color should not really matter. You just want to knock off the corrosion, and not open up the bore the pump body seals to by having the bore slightly smaller than the pump diameter.

Grease probably will work fine. Just need something to help prevent metal to metal galling.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Got the CB spin on filter installed, put the pulley on, only to realize the engine is seized solid.

Hopefully I can get replacement gaskets for the CB pump and afford all the parts for a rebuild, the garage owner has been very patient though don't want to test it.

So glad I took the time off, had the mental clarity to recognize something wasn't right.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:
Got the CB spin on filter installed, put the pulley on, only to realize the engine is seized solid.


Sigh..... Sad
Have you tried to shift the crankshaft clockwise and CCW? Also drop a little penetrating oil into each cylinder to see if that lets any stuck piston to loosen up.

For oil pump gaskets one can use the phone book yellow pages for home made gasket there and a little thicker gasket material you can pickup at most any FLAPS. A scalpel or Exacto knife or even a razor blade will do a good job of carving out the new gaskets.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Adriel Rowley wrote:
Got the CB spin on filter installed, put the pulley on, only to realize the engine is seized solid.


Have you tried to shift the crankshaft clockwise and CCW? Also drop a little penetrating oil into each cylinder to see if that lets any stuck piston to loosen up.


Counter loosens the pulley bolt.

Speaking of which, forgot to say tried rotating the engine with the pulley off and no difference.

Eric&Barb wrote:
For oil pump gaskets one can use the phone book yellow pages for home made gasket there and a little thicker gasket material you can pickup at most any FLAPS. A scalpel or Exacto knife or even a razor blade will do a good job of carving out the new gaskets.


I don't have a telephone book, so good to know can be had at a FLAPS.

As for cutting, I was taught to use a ball peen hammer. For FI intake gaskets I was instructed to use cereal boxes, preferably Cheerios.
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Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.

Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation


Last edited by Adriel Rowley on Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:

Counter loosens the pulley bolt.

Speaking of which, forgot to say tried rotating the engine with the pull off and no difference.



Yes, but takes "X" amount of force to start to unthread the bolt. "X" being the amount the previous person applied to the bolt and how much to over come any corrosion in the threads. What you are looking for is to WIGGLE the crankshaft and hopefully get all of the parts to shift around/back and forth ever so slightly. Then shift a little more, then a little more, repeat till it all moves easily in full rotation and stroke motions.

"Pull Off"??
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Adriel Rowley wrote:

Counter loosens the pulley bolt.

Speaking of which, forgot to say tried rotating the engine with the pulley off and no difference.



Yes, but takes "X" amount of force to start to unthread the bolt. "X" being the amount the previous person applied to the bolt and how much to over come any corrosion in the threads. What you are looking for is to WIGGLE the crankshaft and hopefully get all of the parts to shift around/back and forth ever so slightly. Then shift a little more, then a little more, repeat till it all moves easily in full rotation and stroke motions.


I put all my weight into it, got the bolt very tight, yet, still backed off.

Eric&Barb wrote:
"Pull Off"??


Pulley... Rolling Eyes Laughing
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Turns out the carport roof did in fact leak, however, glad it happened as caused me to pull the heads. Wetness is from sprayed penetrating oil.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Clearly my Harbor Fright compression tester is faulty. For example, look at the several millimeter thick carbon buildup in the piston recess. Shocked
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Is the staining on the pistons and cylinders blowby?
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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What does it mean when the honing is worn away? I can feel a slight transition from honing to smooth with my fingernail (Dad taught me that).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I had a surprise, the pushrods are the 2mm longer, the ones with a knurled end. What do you all make of these heads? Are these the improved version?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Interestingly, no play in the internals. However, with over 250,000 miles, best to split the case and have a look. No sense half arsing this, do it right or don't do it at all.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Cylinder wear means that if you just clean everything up and put all the moving parts back exactly the same place, you have a chance that the piston rings do not hit the unworn areas of the cylinders. If rings hit areas that are unworn they will not last long and loose compression very soon.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Heads are early long stud type that have the short stud conversion installed. Should drill the head fins on those to increase cooling. The below from the transporter workshop manual:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Cylinder wear means that if you just clean everything up and put all the moving parts back exactly the same place, you have a chance that the piston rings do not hit the unworn areas of the cylinders. If rings hit areas that are unworn they will not last long and loose compression very soon.


So what about the pitting, is it not severe enough to warrant replacement?

Yes, I am keeping the pistons where they were and the heads on each side.
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Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Heads are early long stud type that have the short stud conversion installed. Should drill the head fins on those to increase cooling. The below from the transporter workshop manual:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What does long and short stud mean?

I am hoping to find square boss heads and convert, might even have a pair, will have to look. If not, already sent one seller an inquiry (advert did not specify). If not, I already had planned on drilling the holes, thank you for the reminder and help, really appreciated. Gives me the strength to keep going forward.
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Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.

Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810

1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:

So what about the pitting, is it not severe enough to warrant replacement?

Yes, I am keeping the pistons where they were and the heads on each side.


The rust you have looks pretty nasty, and probably will not work out for the best. Was just referring to the piston ring wear.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Dad's 1964 Ruby Red Beetle Reply with quote

Adriel Rowley wrote:

What does long and short stud mean?

I am hoping to find square boss heads and convert, might even have a pair, will have to look. If not, already sent one seller an inquiry (advert did not specify). If not, I already had planned on drilling the holes, thank you for the reminder and help, really appreciated. Gives me the strength to keep going forward.


If rebuildable, those heads will be fine.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200
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