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1957 clutch issues?
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Sweetbabyjane1
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:07 pm    Post subject: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Been having issues shifting into first gear when completely stopped. Lots of grinding going on and refusal to engage first. I have tried revving the engine when the clutch was engaged, thinking it would loosen what ever was stuck. Nope.

We have adjusted clutch cable. Checked Boden tube curve and played with that, with no change in performance. We now have the engine out and pulled the clutch. Cannot find anything wrong with any of it. The clutch plate is worn, measures below spec, that will be replaced. But cannot find issue that would cause plate sticking. Checked the action of the clutch, it seems to be working when pressure is applied to the release pressure ring.

When driving vehicle I found that when the car was up to temp and driving around town, the tranny would not shift into first when I came to a complete stop. It would grind and refuse to go into first. I could repeatedly push the clutch pedal with no help. I originally could shift into second gear first, and sometimes it would go into first. But that doesn't always work. I then tried turning off the car, putting the car in second (because it wouldn't go into first), engage the clutch, start the car, the car would lurch like the clutch wasn't engaged. Then I could put it into first gear to go. It makes for a long get up and go process.
All other gears shift fine most of the time. I occasionally have issue getting into fourth, but stopping the car and running through the gears usually fixes that. The shift stick is bolted tight in place. The shifter coupler looks to be in good condition.

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VW_Jimbo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Need a little bit more history. Start with it was running fine 4 weeks ago……

Take me through the last 4 weeks. Car is fine? Hit a big pot hole? Ran over an elephant? So, I took it to a shop to have a look.

That kind of detailing to a story. Because right now, it makes no sense. Right now, the clutch is not engaging.

Wait. Is the clutch arm slipping on the throw out arm? Or, are the arms on the throw out arm still welded to the cross shaft? Thinking something is foul with clutch disengagement. The clutch has to disengage, so that the input shaft in the transmission can slow down enough to engage gears 2-4. 1st is engaged at a stop but the engine is still spinning. Tranny is at rest with the clutch engaged. Got to be a throw out arm issue. Or a frozen up pilot bearing that has melted itself to the input shaft!

What does the clutch arm look like? What does the input shaft look like? What does the pilot bearing feel like?
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RustPatch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Just so I don't get confused ... the clutch is disengaged when you press the pedal and engaged when you release it.

To me, it sounds like the disc is binding on the splines of the input shaft. It's either that or you're still out of adjustment. Either way the clutch seems to be staying engaged/partially engaged when you push the pedal which is why you get grinding and can't get into 1st gear (I'm assuming you have a split case with a non-synchro 1st gear). It also explains why the car "lurches", why the friction surface of the disc is glazed, and, if it's out of adjustment, why the release plate has what appears to be heat discolouration.

You said that it happens when the car is up to temp, does that mean this doesn't happen when the car is cold? If it doesn't happen when it's cold then I'd be leaning towards the disc binding on the input shaft as it could be free when it's cold but as it heats up and everything expands ...

Joe
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tcoop1100
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

That looks like one well-worn clutch setup. If my clutch and flywheel looked like that I would have the clutch face of the flywheel resurfaced, the pressure plate surfaced or replaced, and a new throwout bearing, in addition to the new disc. Check the needle bearing in the gland nut as well. Make sure the cable is properly adjusted and go from there.
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RustPatch
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

VW_Jimbo wrote:
Need a little bit more history.



Jimbo is right, though. Everything I said was based on limited info and assumptions.
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Sweetbabyjane1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

The car was purchased in 2017 from the 2nd owner in B.C. and shipped via train to Windsor, Ontario.
Shifting was okay initially, had some issues going into 3rd or 4th, but that was corrected with realigning of shifter. No pot holes, elephants or dogs were ever hit with the car. Car has not been driven in over a year, as plans to rebuild motor and shifting issues needed addressing. As life is, unfortunately, crap gets in the way of stuff. But she is out, and now is the time.

Car did shift better cold, first was never an bad issue when cold. But could be coaxed.

Pilot bearing feels fine, no grittiness or binding of bearings. Pics included for clutch arm, throw out bearing, and input shaft.

Hope this helps with the history. This is the first time I have reached out like this, so your input is helpful.

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VW_Jimbo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

So…..that helps mucho!

Looks like the throw out bearing looks good, although I like to spin them and feel them. The contact point are lubricated at the cross shaft so someone knew something when it went together. It should move in and out by actuating the clutch pedal. You should check that!

The input shaft looks like it had some lubrication on it as well. However, I see contamination. Might be a little gritty and may cause binding during actuation. Just like RustPatch stated. You can check that, somewhat, by sliding the disc off and back on. Although not a great test, since the disc becomes removed during engine removal, sometimes there is enough crap on there to allow some feeling. Iam betting this is it!

The clutch arm looks good, the input shaft looks good, the pilot bearing looks good.

Change out the Bowden tube too! Sometimes the clutch cable fails right inside there and the tube is really hard to remove from the cable. Install the new one with lots of grease.

Then install the engine and adjust the clutch. Before starting, operate the clutch and listen to the car. Any scraping steel sounds resonating from the tunnel?

If not, see what happens. Oh, and change the gear oil. Let us know if you have anything glittery or chunky!

I would clean it all up, relabel the key points, install a new TO bearing, disc and pressure plate and see what happens.
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There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
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esde
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

I have just had to troubleshoot a similar issue in a 52 that I am rebuilding. I ended up having a defective new pressure plate, which is obviously not your problem, but here are some thing to look at:
Clutch pedal/ cable routing. The cable can beak a few strands, and start to "unravel" inside the guide tube. If this happens when you press the clutch, some of the pedal travel is just pulling the failed cable straight inside the tube, though it may "feel" correct. Or, but less commonly the guide tube could rust or break free of it's welds in the tunnel, which has the same result.
Or, look at the disc. Theres a wavy spring between the faces, called a marcel spring. If it's cracked and broken, pieces of spring can gum up the works and cause the disc to spin with the flywheel. Imagine a piece of spring getting pulled out by centrifugal force, and sticking the disc. It took like 5 times in and out to diagnose this one.
Check that the pedal moves the release bearing the correct amount. Pushing the pedal to the firewall should move the release bearing 12.5mm to the rear, but you need to check the cable condition first.
Good luck!!
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Sweetbabyjane1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Really want to thank everyone's input. It is greatly appreciated and gives me somewhere to look. My husband and I were scratching our heads, as the issue wasn't immediately apparent when we pulled the engine.

My throw out bearing easily spins. Bearings feel smooth. The clutch plate seems to travel easily on the spline, no catching that I can feel.

Going to replace cable and Bowden tube, as these are cheep and easy fixes. And the obvious need for a clutch plate is noted. Smile

Going to check travel of throw out bearing in the AM via pedal, though it does travel well manually at the tranny.

So to add to my things to do, while the engine is out, I am going to do a rebuild. She is 65 years old. Very Happy

So the engine and tranny are getting attention. I have to wait to pull my tranny. The garage has only so much space and I have to wait for my husband to put his tranny back in his car before I can pull mine.
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Sweetbabyjane1
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Tranny out! But car is in a million pieces! We went with a new pressure plate as well, I have an uncle who knows a thing or two about bugs and said it was shot. Had the flywheel machined down. She looks very nice. This restoration has gotten way out of control....


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tcoop1100
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Same old story- one thing leads to another and pretty soon you're scattered all over the garage. Very Happy
Bag and label EVERYTHING!
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Sweetbabyjane1
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

I learned that lesson to bag everything a looooong time ago. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

tcoop1100 wrote:
Same old story- one thing leads to another and pretty soon you're scattered all over the garage. Very Happy
Bag and label EVERYTHING!


Bag everything after you clean it! Then paint it! Then write down what you need to make that part work, so you can order it Then bag it and Sharpie a title on the bag. Then place it on a shelf.

Onto the next item! You will thank yourself when you get down the road!

By the way. I never do this. I fly by the seat of my pants!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
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VWNate
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:33 pm    Post subject: 1957 Restoration Reply with quote

Nice to see this old Bug getting some love .

Most are pretty crusty these days, you're looks very solid .
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One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc.
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Sweetbabyjane1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Very late update as to what happened for us....
Finally the chassis was completed. Sandblasted and painted with POR15. The tranny was properly cleaned, my husband pulled of the nose cone and inspected the gear selector and we tightened one of the nuts that was not to 'spec'. We pulled the axles off and put in new gaskets and solid boots. Remounted the tranny and engine with a new pressure plate and clutch plate. My husband fashioned a dash to hold the steering wheel and brake reservoir. Slapped the seats in, and with fingers crossed off we went around the back yard testing the tranny. It was perfect. We chanced a quick spin on local roads and got her into fourth with no issues, sticking or grinding!!! Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Sweetbabyjane1 wrote:
Very late update as to what happened for us....
Finally the chassis was completed. Sandblasted and painted with POR15. The tranny was properly cleaned, my husband pulled of the nose cone and inspected the gear selector and we tightened one of the nuts that was not to 'spec'. We pulled the axles off and put in new gaskets and solid boots. Remounted the tranny and engine with a new pressure plate and clutch plate. My husband fashioned a dash to hold the steering wheel and brake reservoir. Slapped the seats in, and with fingers crossed off we went around the back yard testing the tranny. It was perfect. We chanced a quick spin on local roads and got her into fourth with no issues, sticking or grinding!!! Cool


Nice update! Glad it was an easy win!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
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VWNate
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch Fixed Reply with quote

Great news ! thanx for the feedback .
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One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc.
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tcoop1100
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1957 clutch issues? Reply with quote

Glad to hear you fixed it. Pictures of the drive would be fun (hint, hint) Smile .
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January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore
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