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titan3c
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:50 am    Post subject: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

While in the process of installing a master cylinder I discovered the brake pedal is a little stiff in movement. In fact the spring can't return it. It's easy movable by hand, but the spring is totally not affective. There seems to be a lot of "crud" collected between the spring sections which might have happened years ago when there was a fluid leak, and it could have collected some junk then-----just a guess.

I soaked it in wd 40 yesterday to see what happens. And I'm wondering if ATF fluid might help. I'm thinking about removing the pedal, cleaning everything. But haven't figured out yet how to get it loose. On page 138 of the Haynes Manual it isn't clear to me how it comes off. That's an illustration with the power system. On page 140 it shows a cotter pin clip on the end. this must be a right hand drive illustration.

While I got everything apart, and hanging loose under there it would be a good time to fix it right if I can get it off. Bob
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

I will have diagrams up shortly.

Keep in mind this is a pain. Yes.....some of it is crud on the circular spring.....but most of it is rust and crud on the pedal shaft bushing. Yes.....there is a shaft bushing. They press in.

I have never been able to find new ones....but they could be made or modified from something else. If memory serves....there is both a pin and a snap ring. Also.....the spring has to be wound a single rotation. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

OK.....here is the parts diagram. Because VW made so damn many variations....Left hand drive with automatic, Left hand drive with manual trans, left hand drive with power brakes and automatic, left hand drive with power brakes and manual trans....right hand drive with automatic, right hand drive with manual trans, right hand drive with power brakes and automatic and right hand drive with manual trans and automatic..... Shocked Laughing ......

The schematic can get a little confusing......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here it is so you can see all the parts clearly.

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Here it is marked up so you can see what to ignore for your car application.

The lower left corner is the automatic brake pedal for left hand drive. I connected the two circles because...outside of slightly different shape to the brake pedal on the four speed....the attachment details are the same and the four speed diagram was complete.

This gist is....that the shaft stays still and the pedal rotates on the end of it.

There is a 12mm x 1mm snap ring on the end that holds the pedal onto the shaft.

NOTE: The clevis pin at the top...part # 17...which connects the pushrod to the pedal...has an "E" clip or C-clip that is not shown...that holds the clevis pin in the pushrod.

Both the C-clip for the pedal shaft and the E-clip for the clevis are an absolute b*tch to remove and install under the dash. This is most easily serviced on the work bench.

Once the pedal is off....you will see the bushing. I need to find a substitute for these bushings. Mine are sloppy.

Yes....transmission fluid would be ideal for these. It does not take much...it does not compress out of the way in cold weather.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Part number lists.

Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

OK, thanks Ray----So it looks like I just have to deal with the clip ring on the end of the shaft. I have been looking it over, and it's going to be a chore for me to get it off. That clip ring is really small, and so far I haven't been able to locate it's two ends. I'm still cleaning that part, getting rid of all the rust and crud. I'm hoping I might be able to get pliers on the ring and move it around to loosen it up a little, and figure the best angle to get the ring tool ends on it. This isn't going to be an enjoyable afternoon dealing with this. Bob
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

A long ago dim memory is that its more of a "C" clip....and did not have "ears". I "think" it is more like the C rings on the end of CV shafts. I do know that once I got it loose....last I had it off......I lost the snap ring. It went flying while I was trying to reinstall it.

If you search Mcmaster Carr for "metric external retaining rings".....you will note that they list 12mm and 13mm snap rings. Look under "standard" style snap rings in the left hand menu.

The important part about the snap rings....is that you need to take your calipers and the thin edges and measure the diameter of the shaft....in the groove.

You will note that they list OD of snap ring....ID of snap ring....and what diameter of rijg groove its for.....and thickness.

The book lists a 12mm x 1.0mm snap ring for this shaft. Whether its 12mm ID or OD.....I do not know.
I used if memory serves.....a non metric snap ring lightly sanded on an oil stone to fit. Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

I'm getting my uneducated terminology mixed-up. Is the snap ring holding the pedal on the shaft the same as a C clip ring or are they different.? I managed to get a little more light on it, and I can see if what I think is the snap ring it's not so tiny.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
I'm getting my uneducated terminology mixed-up. Is the snap ring holding the pedal on the shaft the same as a C clip ring or are they different.? I managed to get a little more light on it, and I can see if what I think is the snap ring it's not so tiny.


No.....my terminology is specific. They are different. And no....its not tiny. It holds the pedal to the shaft. The pedal moves and and has a bushing in it....the shaft is stationary. But...there is a "tiny" snap ring or C clip holding the clevis pin that attaches the pushrod to the pedal.

What I was getting at....is that the "snap ring" on the end of the shaft...may not be a snap ring at all. It may be a "C" clip.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a "C" clip...as you can see from the diagram its what is used on the CV joints. These are really hard to get off and on.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is an "E"-clip. Really easy to get off and on...but I do not use them in places where if they come loose it can cause loss of like...like brake pedal falling off.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a "C" clip with loops for snap ring pliers. These would be great if you can find the right size and if the ears do not interfere with anything. McMaster Carr has them.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is an "external" snap-ring. Its external because the holes for the snap ring pliers are on the OD and not the ID. These are pretty common and McMaster Carr has them in bags of 5.

You may be able to find them at True-value or Ace Hardware in Metric...but of not...and undersized ID SAE snapring can be made to fit with a few minutes work. Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

I think your right. It's a C clip ring holding the break pedal to the shaft. .I just got through trying to see if I could get any clip ring tool I have to get it off, but I don't. It's hard to get any tool I have to position so it will grab the end of C ring, with enough leverage to move it. Hate to give-up on something, but I doubt if I can get the C clip ring off. Not thru yet, but getting close to giving-up. I hate that.

When the pedal is pushed all the way to the floor, naturally the tension is greater on the spring. It seems the spring is not forcing any pressure on the pedal at all. I haven't checked to see if the spring is installed in place on both ends. I do know that it is hooked in place on the opposite side of the pedal. I haven't checked the other end where it hooks onto the pedal. The pedal is a little stiff, but not much, it seems the spring should have enough tension to move the pedal despite the fact it's a little stiff. Of course if the spring is closing and opening with movement it would be hooked on both ends.

If I can't get the C ring off, I will look at improvising an additional spring to the pedal that will pull it back.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
I think your right. It's a C clip ring holding the break pedal to the shaft. .I just got through trying to see if I could get any clip ring tool I have to get it off, but I don't. It's hard to get any tool I have to position so it will grab the end of C ring, with enough leverage to move it. Hate to give-up on something, but I doubt if I can get the C clip ring off. Not thru yet, but getting close to giving-up. I hate that.

When the pedal is pushed all the way to the floor, naturally the tension is greater on the spring. It seems the spring is not forcing any pressure on the pedal at all. I haven't checked to see if the spring is installed in place on both ends. I do know that it is hooked in place on the opposite side of the pedal. I haven't checked the other end where it hooks onto the pedal. The pedal is a little stiff, but not much, it seems the spring should have enough tension to move the pedal despite the fact it's a little stiff. Of course if the spring is closing and opening with movement it would be hooked on both ends.

If I can't get the C ring off, I will look at improvising an additional spring to the pedal that will pull it back.


The spring action is not huge. The C clip can usually be removed with a lot of screwing around with snap ring pliers in the opening. The first thkng I usually do on that type of C ring is to oil it and then tap it around to break it loose from the rust.

You can take a dremel with cut off wheel and carefully grind a notch in the back part of the C. Then tapping with screw drivers or using snqp ring pliers will break it in two.

Its most probably either that someone has had the spring off before and its not coiled.....or most common that the bushing is gummed up with rust. Ray
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mr white
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

I just solved this on mine. I removed the whole pedal assembly from the car with bracket. Soaked it in diesel overnight. Washed it off and then mounted it in a vise. Then hit it with my cobra torch and now it returns better than new! Sprayed some wurth hhk into the shaft to keep it lubed. No problems with operation.
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

That's the way to do it---take it out so you can see what your doing. I will probably be doing mine that way someday. I did manage to free my pedal up by just fiddeling with it, and skinning my knuckles. Got it cleaned up so it work ok, but could be better.
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scott3t
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

mr white wrote:
I just solved this on mine. I removed the whole pedal assembly from the car with bracket. Soaked it in diesel overnight. Washed it off and then mounted it in a vise. Then hit it with my cobra torch and now it returns better than new! Sprayed some wurth hhk into the shaft to keep it lubed. No problems with operation.


So how do you do that? You have to remove the steering column and then you can get it out? What exactly did you do with the torch? I'm having the same problem now.

-Scott
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glennj3cub
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

I You Tubed it last week and removed everything, cleaned it up, removed the gas pedal & used a wire grinder to clean everything. I’m waiting on the new gas pedal roller and may put them back on Monday. I replaced the clutch & gas pedal cables while I was there.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

glennj3cub wrote:
I You Tubed it last week and removed everything, cleaned it up, removed the gas pedal & used a wire grinder to clean everything. I’m waiting on the new gas pedal roller and may put them back on Monday. I replaced the clutch & gas pedal cables while I was there.


On what kind of car?

Link please?

I suspect the car you are wirking on is NOT a type 4......as you noted "clutch cable". Wink

Type 4 cars do not have clutch cables as the clutch is HYDRAULIC. The pedals also come from above like a modern car and not from below like beetle, bus and type 3.

But thanks for the effort! Very Happy

So.....how to remove the pedal cluster on a type 4?

Well.....its not hard.....but you can do it with the minimum of removal/disassembly.....but it means taking the steering column loose from the steering box. Thats a pain just from the contorted position you will be in on the floorboards.....and for Gods sake....mark the nolts and wires position on the insulating donut.

Really....takIng the steering box loose from the column is ideal.....because in my opinion....everyone should pull the steering box....clean it out....put in new seals and fill with corn head grease.....to preserve it. You trash the type 4 steering box.....and you are screwed unless you find a good new one. Nothing else like it and nothing else fits.....and since 98% of the center links are junk....and yours is probably no different.....pulling your steering hox means pulling the centerlink. Then you can spend $25 in parts and an,afternoon rebuilding it.

So.....here is the disconnect steering column from steering box method:

1. Take steering column loose from steering box at bottom

2. Remove two 8mm allen head screws that,are vertical under thd steering column that hold it to the dash edge/pedal cluster. You will see two vertical 8mm bolts with 13mm hex....leave those alone for a moment.

3. Forward of this area on the steering where the rubber insulation bushing/donut is.....remove the two 10mm bolts. A 1/4" drive set with a flex joint will help.

4. Look forward to the firewall....up above the steering column....behind the pedal cross shaft. There are two 8mm nuts on studs sticking through the firwall. Spray some penetrating oil on them as they are usually rusty.
A 13mm ratcheting wrench is you best friend here. Remove these nuts.

5. Up at the top of the steering column, remove the two phillips screws that hold on the plastic shroud/cover on the column and put those easily broken parts aside.

The steering column should be moving around by now. Disconnect the washer hose and plug it. Pull the electrical plugs out of the steering column switches.

At this point......you can pull the steering column out of the pedal cluster with the steeting wheel and all switch assemblies still attached.

6. Now remove the last two vertical 8mm hex bolts that hold the pedal cluster to the dash edge.

You should be able to pull the pedal cluster out now.

The othet method.....leaves the steeting column attached to the steeting box.....but removes the steering wheel, the ignition switch, the pinch bolt and shroud around the switches and both levers from the steering column. The same bolts come loose on the pedal cluster.... but the pedal cluster is removed by pulling it over the column/tube once the steering,wheel and switches are removed.

Ray
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scott3t
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

Yes, removing the steering column was the ticket. Thanks for procedure details. Now I can see what I'm working with. I just need to figure out if I can "do" anything to loosen up the bushings or just replace them. Neither the clutch nor brake pedals return to the normal position.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The "C" clip or snapring is on the end on both bushings/sides.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

In that same position.....in the past.....because I could not order new bushings and had few resources on hand at the time to make new bushings.....I opted to clean them up and lube them. Mind you this still left me with a slight wobble at the peddle because the bushings were shot.....so I will be at the same stage you are at some point.

But.....to remove the pedals.....clean well. There is a snap ring at each end. Mind how much wind up the springs have. I cant remember if its a half rev or a full rev.

After you pull the pedal off each end....the big spring pin on the inside lets the shaft come out. Then the bushings tap out. Ray
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sallittjob
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

Wanted to piggyback this topic instead of starting a new one. I just pulled the steering column and pedal assembly/bracket out of my new to me 412. This is a 73 LHD Auto 4dr Sedan FYI. My brake pedal was gummed up with rust because it appears the M/C failed at some point in the car's life, which leaked brake fluid all over the bracket and pedal assembly.

It's out of the car now. Took about an hour or so to remove . Ray's instructions were a great help. I was actually able to remove the retaining clip from the brake pedal in the car with some 90° snap ring pliers. But the pedal was tight on the shaft from the rust build-up and the M/C pushrod wouldn't allow me to pull it off in the car anyway.

So my plan now is to sandblast the entire bracket and the pedals and then rattle can them black so it looks like new. Quick question though on the "bushing" for the pedal. Is it safe to sandblast that? I can't tell if it's some soft material or not but I'd assume it could be bronze or something similar which might get damaged by blasting. Just wondering what process everyone would recommend to clean that critical component up. I was originally planning to just blast everything and then mask that section off when painting. But if it's delicate, I can use some fine grit sandpaper on the bushing and mask it off when I blast/paint.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: brake pedal problem Reply with quote

Just wanted to follow up here. I completely removed the pedal assembly and steering column. I sandblasted the pedal, bushing bore and the entire bracket. The bushing end did start to bend in a little at one point but I was able to push it back in place by installing the pedal backwards on the shaft once.

Everything got rattle canned semi-gloss black and I greased up the pedal pivot. The brake pedal now springs back up against the pedal stop perfectly when released.

Here are some before pictures which show to damage from a brake fluid leak. I forgot to snap some of the after shots but will try to remember later.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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57' Beetle Deluxe
1192cc SP

71' Super Beetle
1968cc DP

73' 412 Sedan
1679cc FI

75' Westy
1800cc FI
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