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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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 Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Folks discuss carbon dioxide emissions affecting global temperatures, but does anyone here know if the actual heat from fuel combustion and use (think hot vehicle engines, heat thrown off from AC condensers, burning coal or oil to generate electricity, etc.) affect global warming ???
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| steve244 wrote: |
| Fun fact: facts are fun enough on their own that you don't need to fabricate facts. |
Hah! Want another fun fact? All the "facts" I used came directly from the links YOU posted. I even tried to pad the numbers in favor of EV's, just so no one could claim I was biased. I was hoping this gesture would not go unnoticed. Oh, well.
| steve244 wrote: |
From the AU link:
EVs convert over 77 per cent of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12 per cent – 30 per cent of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels,” according to the US Department of Energy[iii].
Oh, and there are no losses at the charging station. It's just a switch that also does a handshake with the car to let it know how much current it can draw. And there's this thing called regenerative braking. |
Yes, I read the article. First of all, claiming 12% efficiency for an ICE is a cheap shot, unless you're talking about Billy Bob's nasty old clapped out diesel dump truck rotting away on the back 40. 30% is probably close to the mark for an older ICE, but 40% is rapidly becoming the norm, and 50% already exists (I think I mentioned my own Beetle is at 39%). And secondly, notice the "[iii]" at the end of the quote? That is a link to the original source of that 77% claim: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml
Here is the full quote from the original source (I put the relevant parts in bold):
"EVs are 60% to 73% efficient, depending upon drive cycle. However, if the energy recaptured from regenerative braking is counted (i.e., recounted when it is re-used), EVs are 77% to 100% efficient."
That 77% ALREADY INCLUDES the regenerative braking (as did the very generous 85% that I used in my previous post; I am VERY skeptical of their claim of 100% efficiency). Again, this is ONLY the efficiency from the battery to the wheels, and does not paint a complete picture of the total amount energy being lost. Also, the original source provides a picture showing the various energy requirements of EV's. One of them was labelled "Energy lost in charging the battery: 10%". This 10% may also be a very generous estimate on their part. According to the ADAC:
"At the charging station, the vehicles have to recharge significantly higher amounts of energy because the computers do not take into account the losses in the upstream electrical installation such as the charging station, plugs, cables and on-board chargers as well as batteries. The difference remains invisible to the driver – but he still has to pay for it.
Together with other inaccuracies of on-board computers, the charging losses add up, in some cases considerably: in the case of the Tesla Model 3 LR, for example, just under 25% must be added to the on-board computer data, in the Seat Mii electric just under 21% and in the Jaguar i-Pace a good 17%. But also the middle class cars Renault ZOE (almost 19%), Nissan Leaf (17.6%) and VW e-up (15.6%) showed significant deviations. Only the KIA e-Niro (9.9%) remained below the 10% mark."
https://www.smart2zero.com/en/up-to-25-energy-loss-when-charging-electric-vehicles-tests-show/
So I'll stand by my original bet. If I'm wrong, it ain't by much!
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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Evil Clown
Live
Joined: January 08, 2009
Posts: 1347
Location: Wacky Macs
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Part II from previous page:
Link
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CARRY ON
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Chinese word for constipation:
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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I think I posted this link earlier: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...022-11-15/
Nov 16 (Reuters) - "Electric vehicles (EVs) and full-size pickup trucks were the two most problematic categories in terms of reliability, Consumer Reports magazine's annual reliability survey showed on Tuesday, as Asian brands once again dominated overall rankings.
Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) EVs, on which Consumer Reports received the most data from owners, continue to face issues with body hardware, steering/suspension, paint and trim, and climate system, but their electric powertrains have very few problems, according to the survey."
I, too, was once under the impression that EV's were bulletproof in the reliability and maintenance department. At least they appear to have got their drive trains sorted out.
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
I think I posted this link earlier: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...022-11-15/
Nov 16 (Reuters) - "Electric vehicles (EVs) and full-size pickup trucks were the two most problematic categories in terms of reliability, Consumer Reports magazine's annual reliability survey showed on Tuesday, as Asian brands once again dominated overall rankings.
Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) EVs, on which Consumer Reports received the most data from owners, continue to face issues with body hardware, steering/suspension, paint and trim, and climate system, but their electric powertrains have very few problems, according to the survey."
I, too, was once under the impression that EV's were bulletproof in the reliability and maintenance department. At least they appear to have got their drive trains sorted out. |
Are we talking warranty claims? Alrighty then! I'm sure eurocarskilz will become a factory authorized warranty service centre. And gouge his customers.
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a 2015 Leaf 
Road Trip to Hell (FL 2023)
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way...
Last edited by steve244 on Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:03 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| steve244 wrote: |
| Fun fact: facts are fun enough on their own that you don't need to fabricate facts. |
Hah! Want another fun fact? All the "facts" I used came directly from the links YOU posted. I even tried to pad the numbers in favor of EV's, just so no one could claim I was biased. I was hoping this gesture would not go unnoticed. Oh, well.
| steve244 wrote: |
From the AU link:
EVs convert over 77 per cent of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12 per cent – 30 per cent of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels,” according to the US Department of Energy[iii].
Oh, and there are no losses at the charging station. It's just a switch that also does a handshake with the car to let it know how much current it can draw. And there's this thing called regenerative braking. |
Yes, I read the article. First of all, claiming 12% efficiency for an ICE is a cheap shot, unless you're talking about Billy Bob's nasty old clapped out diesel dump truck rotting away on the back 40. 30% is probably close to the mark for an older ICE, but 40% is rapidly becoming the norm, and 50% already exists (I think I mentioned my own Beetle is at 39%). And secondly, notice the "[iii]" at the end of the quote? That is a link to the original source of that 77% claim: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml
Here is the full quote from the original source (I put the relevant parts in bold):
"EVs are 60% to 73% efficient, depending upon drive cycle. However, if the energy recaptured from regenerative braking is counted (i.e., recounted when it is re-used), EVs are 77% to 100% efficient."
That 77% ALREADY INCLUDES the regenerative braking (as did the very generous 85% that I used in my previous post; I am VERY skeptical of their claim of 100% efficiency). Again, this is ONLY the efficiency from the battery to the wheels, and does not paint a complete picture of the total amount energy being lost. Also, the original source provides a picture showing the various energy requirements of EV's. One of them was labelled "Energy lost in charging the battery: 10%". This 10% may also be a very generous estimate on their part. According to the ADAC:
"At the charging station, the vehicles have to recharge significantly higher amounts of energy because the computers do not take into account the losses in the upstream electrical installation such as the charging station, plugs, cables and on-board chargers as well as batteries. The difference remains invisible to the driver – but he still has to pay for it.
Together with other inaccuracies of on-board computers, the charging losses add up, in some cases considerably: in the case of the Tesla Model 3 LR, for example, just under 25% must be added to the on-board computer data, in the Seat Mii electric just under 21% and in the Jaguar i-Pace a good 17%. But also the middle class cars Renault ZOE (almost 19%), Nissan Leaf (17.6%) and VW e-up (15.6%) showed significant deviations. Only the KIA e-Niro (9.9%) remained below the 10% mark."
https://www.smart2zero.com/en/up-to-25-energy-loss-when-charging-electric-vehicles-tests-show/
So I'll stand by my original bet. If I'm wrong, it ain't by much! |
You might get 39% at full throttle. And I can relate to driving that way all the time owning an AC VW myself.
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a 2015 Leaf
Road Trip to Hell (FL 2023)
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way... |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Folks discuss carbon dioxide emissions affecting global temperatures, but does anyone here know if the actual heat from fuel combustion and use (think hot vehicle engines, heat thrown off from AC condensers, burning coal or oil to generate electricity, etc.) affect global warming ??? |
The world generates about 400 ExaJoules per year, that’s about 10^21 Joules
The solar flux is about 10^25 joules per year, rough swag
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steve244
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Location: GA
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| steve244 wrote: |
| You might get 39% at full throttle. And I can relate to driving that way all the time owning an AC VW myself. |
All of the power, all of the time, baby!
You bring up a good point, though. Actually, IC engines become less thermally efficient at full throttle. If they didn't, they'd melt their pistons!
I could be wrong, but I believe ICE is most efficient (thermally) when it's producing max torque, not max power. I got my 39% at light cruise (60 mph @ 3025 RPM). It's easy to calculate your own thermal efficiency with this formula:
THERMAL EFFICIENCY = 0.1339 X HORSEPOWER ÷ FUEL FLOW IN POUNDS PER HOUR X 100%
0.1339 is the inverted ratio of BTU's per pound of fuel per horsepower per hour, based on 19,000 BTU's per pound of gasoline, and 2545 BTU's per horsepower per hour.
Gasoline weighs 5.92 pounds per gallon.
It takes about 26 horsepower to push a Beetle at 60 mph on a flat, level road.
My engine only uses 8.88 pounds of fuel to push the car 60 miles in one hour (40 mpg @ 60 mph). This is 39% thermal efficiency. Most 1500-1600cc ACVW engines get about 25 mpg @ 60 mph. This is 24.5% thermal efficiency.
I don't know, does an electric motor become more, or less, thermally efficient at "full throttle"?
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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40 MPG is amazing. What's the combined mpg, real life, of your bug.
If you're getting 40mpg combined, that's 1 gallon to go 40 miles. The equivalent kWh is 32.97.
My Leaf burns 12kWh week in and week out to go 40+ miles driving from Marietta to midtown Atlanta daily. Driving excessively fast (75-85) with the A/C blasting.
A gallon of regular is $3.20 today in GA.
12kWh costs $1.44 from the comfort of my carport.
Who's your daddy?
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a 2015 Leaf
Road Trip to Hell (FL 2023)
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way...
Last edited by steve244 on Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:54 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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vwmerckx 
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Joined: August 12, 2012
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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A few little gems from that article...
The advantage of hydrogen over batteries is that it provides much more power per kilogram. Batteries are simply too heavy to power larger planes.
Yet hydrogen aviation remains a very long way off. The tests carried out so far have simply shown that a jet engine using hydrogen can be started up and run at low speed. But to go from there to building a wholly new engine, capable of powering a passenger aircraft safely will take a great deal more research - and significant investment.
The aircraft themselves will also need to be redesigned. Hydrogen, even in liquid form, takes up about four times as much space as the kerosene required to fly the same distance.
To make it into a liquid in the first place, it needs to be cooled to -253C. Then, before being burned, it must be turned back into a gas.
"There's a big change from the aircraft point of view," says Alan Newby at Rolls-Royce.
"They're going to have to have a tank containing the hydrogen. You've got to keep it at this really, really cold temperature.
Go ahead Steve 244 and tell us again how close we are to powering aircraft with Hydrogen! Practically solved already eh?
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We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| steve244 wrote: |
40 MPG is amazing. What's the combined mpg, real life, of your bug.
If you're getting 40mpg combined, that's 1 gallon to go 40 miles. The equivalent kWh is 32.97.
My Leaf burns 12kWh week in and week out to go 40+ miles driving from Marietta to midtown Atlanta daily. Driving excessively fast (75-85) with the A/C blasting.
A gallon of regular is $3.20 today in GA.
12kWh costs $1.44 from the comfort of my carport.
Who's your daddy? |
I once drove from San Diego to just east of Chicago and kept track of my mileage for the whole trip. Everything combined, including city, highway and getting up, over and down the Rockies (with a couple hundred pounds of all my shit in the back of the car), I averaged a little over 36 mpg. If I really get on it at every stop light and go flat out on all the lonely sections of highway, I can get down into the low 30's mpg.
$1.44 for 12 kWh? Man, that's cheap! I'm paying close to $2.54 for 12 kWh.
I don't remember if you said, but how do you know your Leaf is using 12 kWh to go 40 miles?
P.S. If you look at it from a different perspective, $3.20 for 33 kWh of gasoline works out to a little less than 10 cents per kWh. $1.44 for 12 kWh is 12 cents per kWh. $2.54 for 12 kWh is 21 cents (more than double the price of gasoline). Hah! Gasoline wins!
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Alice is expected to be delivered in 2024, and just made its first flight this September.
Please note its cargo capacity... from the DHL link, it carries a max of 2,600lbs, just a bit more than the tare weight of the transport dollies that move individual freight containers (ULDs) around to the actual operating large transport category air freighters I work on. More perspective, my father in law just took a 6x8 single axle trailer with junk to the local dump with his 2016 Ram 2500, and said he weighed in total right about 9k lbs, or roughly three times more than the total weight capacity of Alice... The transport capacity is not there yet for electric aviation. You can say "its coming" or "it just needs XYZ and it will be great" but the fact is, right now it's more economical to operate petroleum-fueled jet engines. Even the alternative Jet-A biofuels are subsidized, as I understand.
Not to dump on the aircraft... or electric flight in general. I think the concept is really cool and it's good to see engineers think outside the box reaching for what is currently not possible.
An electric aircraft has a place.. but right now that place is not anywhere near replacing the current jet-a fueled fleets of the world. Legislation or economics seem to be the only way to change that, usually at the expense of the consumer as we pay higher taxes to subsidize EPA pet projects or absorb a general increase in price for goods and services. E.G., the 'fuel surcharge' I'm sure we've all seen on airline tickets and delivery services.
These are just opinions.. but I hope I can provide some perspective from my industry with what I have personally seen and can attest to over the last 15 years. I'll see myself out the front door....
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Anyone check out the Nimbus EV? It's a 3-wheeler which can be charged overnight from a standard outlet. They call it a 2-passenger but that's pushing it. Its intended to be used for urban driving with a top speed of something like 55 mph and a range of around 94 miles. Price is around $10K. |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| oprn wrote: |
A few little gems from that article...
The advantage of hydrogen over batteries is that it provides much more power per kilogram. Batteries are simply too heavy to power larger planes.
Yet hydrogen aviation remains a very long way off. The tests carried out so far have simply shown that a jet engine using hydrogen can be started up and run at low speed. But to go from there to building a wholly new engine, capable of powering a passenger aircraft safely will take a great deal more research - and significant investment.
The aircraft themselves will also need to be redesigned. Hydrogen, even in liquid form, takes up about four times as much space as the kerosene required to fly the same distance.
To make it into a liquid in the first place, it needs to be cooled to -253C. Then, before being burned, it must be turned back into a gas.
"There's a big change from the aircraft point of view," says Alan Newby at Rolls-Royce.
"They're going to have to have a tank containing the hydrogen. You've got to keep it at this really, really cold temperature.
Go ahead Steve 244 and tell us again how close we are to powering aircraft with Hydrogen! Practically solved already eh? |
Electric motors and fuel cell technology. Burning hydrogen is inefficient.
Won't happen in the next 10 or even 20 years. Next 30 years, yes...
For now we'll have to rely on carbon neutral aviation fuel. There are several ways to do this now.
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a 2015 Leaf
Road Trip to Hell (FL 2023)
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way... |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| steve244 wrote: |
40 MPG is amazing. What's the combined mpg, real life, of your bug.
If you're getting 40mpg combined, that's 1 gallon to go 40 miles. The equivalent kWh is 32.97.
My Leaf burns 12kWh week in and week out to go 40+ miles driving from Marietta to midtown Atlanta daily. Driving excessively fast (75-85) with the A/C blasting.
A gallon of regular is $3.20 today in GA.
12kWh costs $1.44 from the comfort of my carport.
Who's your daddy? |
I once drove from San Diego to just east of Chicago and kept track of my mileage for the whole trip. Everything combined, including city, highway and getting up, over and down the Rockies (with a couple hundred pounds of all my shit in the back of the car), I averaged a little over 36 mpg. If I really get on it at every stop light and go flat out on all the lonely sections of highway, I can get down into the low 30's mpg.
$1.44 for 12 kWh? Man, that's cheap! I'm paying close to $2.54 for 12 kWh.
I don't remember if you said, but how do you know your Leaf is using 12 kWh to go 40 miles?
P.S. If you look at it from a different perspective, $3.20 for 33 kWh of gasoline works out to a little less than 10 cents per kWh. $1.44 for 12 kWh is 12 cents per kWh. $2.54 for 12 kWh is 21 cents (more than double the price of gasoline). Hah! Gasoline wins! |
The charging stations at work tell me how much I charge, and I know how much I drive. The base model Leaf doesn't give you that in a gui. (ETA: it does give you efficiency expressed as kWh/mile but I never looked at it.)
Typical round trip of 40 miles is 12kWh. OW is 6kWh. The outliers are more or less.
Here's a pdf with data (you'll have to trust me on the miles driven):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mrbGZiwRPL5Osn3kicrsLgo8YoaArjK1/view?usp=sharing
P.S. efficiency is everything.
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a 2015 Leaf
Road Trip to Hell (FL 2023)
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way...
Last edited by steve244 on Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
Alice is expected to be delivered in 2024, and just made its first flight this September.
Please note its cargo capacity... from the DHL link, it carries a max of 2,600lbs, just a bit more than the tare weight of the transport dollies that move individual freight containers (ULDs) around to the actual operating large transport category air freighters I work on. More perspective, my father in law just took a 6x8 single axle trailer with junk to the local dump with his 2016 Ram 2500, and said he weighed in total right about 9k lbs, or roughly three times more than the total weight capacity of Alice... The transport capacity is not there yet for electric aviation. You can say "its coming" or "it just needs XYZ and it will be great" but the fact is, right now it's more economical to operate petroleum-fueled jet engines. Even the alternative Jet-A biofuels are subsidized, as I understand.
Not to dump on the aircraft... or electric flight in general. I think the concept is really cool and it's good to see engineers think outside the box reaching for what is currently not possible.
An electric aircraft has a place.. but right now that place is not anywhere near replacing the current jet-a fueled fleets of the world. Legislation or economics seem to be the only way to change that, usually at the expense of the consumer as we pay higher taxes to subsidize EPA pet projects or absorb a general increase in price for goods and services. E.G., the 'fuel surcharge' I'm sure we've all seen on airline tickets and delivery services.
These are just opinions.. but I hope I can provide some perspective from my industry with what I have personally seen and can attest to over the last 15 years. I'll see myself out the front door.... |
It'll definitely have an impact on regional, sub 300 mile travel. Soon. Executive airports will be opening up taxi service that's competitive with the majors. A flight from Marietta to Memphis will be summoned on an uber-like app.
Medium and long haul will have to rely on carbon neutral fuel for the foreseeable future.
But I bet dirigibles make a comeback for freight and air-cruising before then...
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a 2015 Leaf
Road Trip to Hell (FL 2023)
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way... |
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Evil Clown
Live
Joined: January 08, 2009
Posts: 1347
Location: Wacky Macs
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Link
_________________
CARRY ON
| Quote: |
| I'll take a Happy Meal with Prozac please |
| Quote: |
| kiss my airy VW ass |
| Quote: |
German word for constapation:
Farfrompoopin |
| Quote: |
Chinese word for constipation:
Hung Chow Chow.. & it was GR8! |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
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