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john_lessard Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2017 Posts: 103 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:09 pm Post subject: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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Hi All! As the title of this post reports, I am having an issue where the transaxle sticks in gear when trying to shift. Here are the details:
I have a rebuilt 2WD 094 4-speed transaxle with SA oil plates, Weddle MS thrust plate, steel caged idler bearings, and a Peloquins TBD. The builder is reputable and well known. I have about 7000 miles on this trans hooked up to a fresh Bostig conversion. A new Sachs clutch kit was installed when the trans and Zatec went in. I also have a Big Shot shifter and recently refurbishing shifter linkage. The linkage has been aligned to the best of my abilities. The clutch has also been well bled with a power bleeder.
I started noticing these symptoms in the last few months. When decelerating or coming to stop and attempting to shift out of gear to either down shift or go to neutral, the shifter would be stuck in gear. A light "slap" would pop the shifter out of gear. This happens about 75% of the time I am down shifting out of 2nd or 4th gear. It has never happened when upshifting regularly.
I talked to the builder and he suggested a failing pilot bearing. The pilot bearing was new with the Bostig install. I guess there is a chance I could have installed the VW bearing that came with the clutch kit instead of the one specified for the Bostig conversion. Bostig calls for BCA/National part number F33126.
Before I yank the transaxle to replace the pilot bearing, I wanted to consult the hive mind and ask if people think these symptoms are in fact pilot bearing related. I appreciate any input!! _________________ 1986 Tin-Top Vanagon, 2.0L Zetec, Peloquins TBD 2WD |
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Igeo Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018 Posts: 888 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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If it's hanging on the pilot bearing, it would likely grind going into reverse. Does it? _________________ 1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual |
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TopBud Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2004 Posts: 1107 Location: Flagstaff AZ
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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That can be the issue. I did the same exact thing. I was so used to ordering parts for a vw, when I did the conversion, I put the vw pilot bearing in. I think I had issues right away. I checked everything else and messed with everything else before I dropped the engine and transmission. I have a Syncro and it was easier and quicker for me to drop both at the same time. We have done several engine/transmissions for the Bostig and find it's easier and quicker to drop engine trans together. YMMV
There is also a pretty active FB Bostig owners group. lots of knowledge. _________________ 86 bostig SYNCRO
66 convertible Karmann Ghia |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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I would disconnect the shift linkage at the transmission and while someone supports the rear, run through the shift pattern and feel if there's any hangups.
This way you can rule out any problems with the linkage.
While the shift linkage is disconnected you can also manually shift the transmission through the pattern and feel how smooth the shifters inside the box work.
You didn't mention anything about breaking in the rebuild, have you changed the oil? How clean is the magnet on the drain plug? _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3260 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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If this phenomenon only occurs in connection with shifting OUT of 2nd gear or 4th gear, it sounds to me to be a shifter adjustment issue.
It's easy to mistakenly install the shift rod grommet holder ( for lack of a better descriptor) on the wrong side of the flange it is bolted on to. In the pic below, you can see that the "grommet holder" is bolted to a 1/2" thick aluminum flange on the gearbox. If you bolt to the other side of that flange, shifting will be affected.
_________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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This is all theory, I’ve never heard or done this test.
Critics welcome, but keep in mind a brutha is down and may not need heckling this moment.
==============
Lift One rear wheel off the ground.
Put it in gear, to connect the lifted wheel to the input shaft.
I’d choose 4th gear. But other gears should be similar, just turning the input shaft “faster”.
Assistant is in the drivers seat holding the clutch pedal to the floor.
You should be able to rotate the lifted tire (and every gear in the trans and the clutch disc) while the engine is stopped.
If not, either the clutch is not releasing, or the pilot bearing is “stuck”.
How to determine between the clutch or the bearing, is another matter.
But maybe just start here and give us some time to noodle the next steps (if any).
========
Also have assistant work the clutch pedal up & down, you should observe the clutch
arm moving appx 3/4inch from under the van. <—-someone please confirm this 3/4” is a correct distance!! I don’t have a Vanagon clutch lever to verify this distance (I have a Smallcar Bellhousing). |
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john_lessard Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2017 Posts: 103 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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So I am running Swepco 202 in the new trans. I was did replace the gear oil after the first 5k for a break in flush. No metal or issues found in the drained oil.
I am pretty sure the bushing bracket is bolted into the trans correctly. If it was bolted onto the wrong side, I am pretty sure I would not physically be able to shift in and out of 2nd or 4th.
I do not experience much if any gear grinding when shifting into reverse. As long as the van is stopped when I press the clutch, it will slip into reverse.
Since I have the Peloquins TBD, I would not be able to do any one wheel jacked diagnostics. Shifting by hand with the engine off and linkage disconnected is fine. I can easily shift in and out of gears with the engine off or on at idle. It's really only when I am decelerating mostly in 2nd.
I just finished a drive from Boston to Cape Cod and am still dealing with the issues. It's pretty consistent now. It feels like something is holding the shifter in gear, almost mechanical. Applying pressure to the shifter to get it out of gear won't really work and feels like I'm hurting it. A light slap of the shifter lever pursuades it right out of gear. So frustrating! _________________ 1986 Tin-Top Vanagon, 2.0L Zetec, Peloquins TBD 2WD |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16802 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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does this happen only when "hot"?
i say "hot" because i had a case where a trans was shifting 100% fine for the first 15-20 miles and it was getting stuck in gear.
that said, it should be about impossible to downshift into any gear if it's related to input shaft drag
for a sanity check, i would get it "hot" (or whenever the symptom is the most prevalent) and when it gets 'stuck' in gear, coast off to the side of the road, shut the engine down and see if it shifts
if it does, 99% chance its something to do with the pilot bearing
new doesn't mean good anymore
also i have seen a mis-machined adapter plate/flywheel cause the depth of the input shaft to be "too deep" and just barely kiss the input shaft nose and cause a drag like a sticking pilot bearing. it didn't show up right away, about 5-6k miles _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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The test could work with a Peloquin.
You might try it (lifting just one wheel).
You might be surprised.
If you can’t turn the wheel, lift both rear wheels and as long as both rear wheels turn the same direction, the (….input shaft/clutch drag) test is still good.
The problem you describe could be a broken 1st/2nd hub.
I think 1st/2nd gear hubs do break occasionally.
Not as regularly as 3/4 hubs. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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john_lessard Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2017 Posts: 103 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
does this happen only when "hot"?
i say "hot" because i had a case where a trans was shifting 100% fine for the first 15-20 miles and it was getting stuck in gear.
that said, it should be about impossible to downshift into any gear if it's related to input shaft drag
for a sanity check, i would get it "hot" (or whenever the symptom is the most prevalent) and when it gets 'stuck' in gear, coast off to the side of the road, shut the engine down and see if it shifts
if it does, 99% chance its something to do with the pilot bearing
new doesn't mean good anymore
also i have seen a mis-machined adapter plate/flywheel cause the depth of the input shaft to be "too deep" and just barely kiss the input shaft nose and cause a drag like a sticking pilot bearing. it didn't show up right away, about 5-6k miles |
Honestly, I am pretty sure this does only happen when the engine is up to temperature. For the first 10 minutes or so I do not notice it. Then the sticking will begin. It may even happen more often after longer drives. _________________ 1986 Tin-Top Vanagon, 2.0L Zetec, Peloquins TBD 2WD |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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MsTaboo wrote: |
While the shift linkage is disconnected you can also manually shift the transmission through the pattern and feel how smooth the shifters inside the box work. |
This is another fairly easy test. Perhaps done “hot” with rear wheels spinning as if driving? Kinda good to do a few tests before taking it apart. If you can’t find anything wrong (upon disassembly) you may wish you’d done more tests. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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I tried this before posting. Get the van up to temp where it sticks in gear. Instead of trying to downshift, lift off the accelerator and as the trans comes off load, see if you can pull it out of gear into neutral. Don’t use the clutch. A slight downhill grade might help free the trans loading if you are unfamiliar with what a loaded gear feels like. If it’s just as difficult to get out of gear, likely it’s not the pilot bearing or the clutch. My pro built 4 speed was sticking in 4th after 60,000 miles. I don’t have access to the pictures, but the dogs had worn the loaded side of the slots in the brass syncro rings that they would eventually jam the slider. If you’ve been driving it hard, you may have overloaded the syncro rings. 2nd wears from the “speed shift” from first. 4th wears from the power under continuous load at highway speeds. This is internal so, if you find the pilot bearing ok, you may have to get back with the builder, not because they made a mistake, but they may want to see. 1/2 sliders were NLA all last summer. 3/4 sliders have not been available for even longer. In a pinch you can substitute a 1/2 for a 3/4. There were some aftermarket sliders that are out there, but not sure they’ve done enough miles for a feel for how they hold up. Sorry I don’t have a better solution. Do the test and report back. Mark _________________ ☮️ |
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john_lessard Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2017 Posts: 103 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I tried this before posting. Get the van up to temp where it sticks in gear. Instead of trying to downshift, lift off the accelerator and as the trans comes off load, see if you can pull it out of gear into neutral. Don’t use the clutch. A slight downhill grade might help free the trans loading if you are unfamiliar with what a loaded gear feels like. If it’s just as difficult to get out of gear, likely it’s not the pilot bearing or the clutch. My pro built 4 speed was sticking in 4th after 60,000 miles. I don’t have access to the pictures, but the dogs had worn the loaded side of the slots in the brass syncro rings that they would eventually jam the slider. If you’ve been driving it hard, you may have overloaded the syncro rings. 2nd wears from the “speed shift” from first. 4th wears from the power under continuous load at highway speeds. This is internal so, if you find the pilot bearing ok, you may have to get back with the builder, not because they made a mistake, but they may want to see. 1/2 sliders were NLA all last summer. 3/4 sliders have not been available for even longer. In a pinch you can substitute a 1/2 for a 3/4. There were some aftermarket sliders that are out there, but not sure they’ve done enough miles for a feel for how they hold up. Sorry I don’t have a better solution. Do the test and report back. Mark |
This is really good information. To my untrained ability (I am not privy to trans internals), it feels like something mechanical is holding up the gear sliders inside the transaxle. I will definitely attempt all of the tests called out so far. I will be away for a couple weeks, so I will report back when I have time. I want to spend the time testing the transaxle in the van before I pull it. I really hope I do not need to send it back to my builder.
Full disclose.. I have had to send this transaxle back TWICE. First issue was discovered during my test drive with the new Bostig conversion. The wrong first gear was installed and it was impossible to shift out of gear. The second issue was found after a few thousand miles of driving. I began to hear a rattling noise in the trans which turned out to be the new aftermarket input shaft contacting the Peloquins TBD. The new shaft has a slightly larger diameter than stock. I started feeling the sticky shifter shortly after I installed this transaxle for the 3rd time.
In between the first and second issue (while the trans was being reworked), I installed a good used one and put a few thousand miles on it. There were no sticky shifter issues during this time. _________________ 1986 Tin-Top Vanagon, 2.0L Zetec, Peloquins TBD 2WD |
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Rorke Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016 Posts: 255 Location: Traverse City, MI
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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John,
Can you shift through the gears smoothly when the vehicle is off or stopped?
I have not been able to shift out of 4th smoothly when I am moving. It grinds its way out eventually. But this will kill the trans eventually.
Everyone has said that I have damaged the 3/4/slider from running hard with too much weight.
Just had my trans rebuilt last year. Sent it to California for a rebuild and Peoloquin. Nuts.
While it was there, I asked about a taller 3 and 4 gear. But I was told to skip it because I have a Subaru 2.2 which can handle higher RPM.
What does the group think, should I change that up when I get 3/4 slider fixed?
Thanks |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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Rorke, first of all.....If you have help, having someone 'work the clutch' while you go under the van and measure the distance that the actuation arm moves. Park with a couple wheels up on a curb to get more space under the van. I'm not writing "the distance" here that you should expect (because I might get it wrong but maybe someone with a proper van will chime in).
And if not 'the proper distance'..... you would verify your brake/clutch fluid level at the reservoir. Then 'bleed the clutch'. That's the first thing to try with shifting trouble, always.
Rorke wrote: |
Just had my trans rebuilt last year. Sent it to California for a rebuild and Peoloquin. Nuts.
While it was there, I asked about a taller 3 and 4 gear. But I was told to skip it because I have a Subaru 2.2 which can handle higher RPM.
What does the group think, should I change that up when I get 3/4 slider fixed?
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If you had OEM wheel size (185/80R14 25.7") then it would have been good to change 3rd/4th (for a Subaru). If you have bigger tires (about 27 inches?) in the Western USA (where there's mountains etc) retaining OEM 3rd&4th works well for a Subaru 2.2.
Trouble with 4th gear at highway speeds, does sound like the 3/4 slider. Original VW sliders included a life-limiting design, a specific feature to initiate a crack, to take the vehicle off the road. Normally it cracks somewhere between 125, 175,000 miles. New (Weddle etc) sliders do not have that intentional lifetime-limiting feature added, and may (?) never break.
If the rebuilder was 'dumb enough' to send a rebuild out with a used 3/4 slider (possibly only a few 10,000 remaining life) then it could be broken my now. This would be like taking your modern car in for a timing belt change and they install a used timing belt of unknown future miles.
Depends what builder you sent it to. Some builders think that if it's not visibly cracked now, it's still good. This would be a discount builder.
So, (after the clutch exercise above) I'd ask the builder if your gearbox had a NEW slider or a 'used' slider of unknown mileage'. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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Not going to comment on gear ratios. That ends up being an individual preference. You can gear too tall. I'm back from a trouble free cross country trip with my rebuilt 4 speed. I uploaded pictures of my transaxle that was sticking hard in 4th gear. The 3/4 hub was in perfect condition. This transaxle was mated to a basically stock TDI with a single mass flywheel. It was probuilt for that application.
The 3 dogs and synchronizer ring slots were so beat out, that the dogs were being forced up onto the side of the synchronzer ring jamming the slider ring against fourth gear. You can also where the gear teeth were failing. It was a .77 from Weddle. I contacted them and they explained they were not surprised to see that pitting after 60,000 miles.
This time I rebuilt the transaxle so I could have some control over the final product and not have the shippers getting rich. I also have upgraded to a DMF flywheel and a new straight cut 4th gear from member "Gears" or GT Transaxle I recall. To the sound of the straight cut gear. I did not mention it to my wife, but on the trip, she heard it and asked what it was. So, its more than what a trained ear would hear. If the straight cut gear solves the wear on the mainshaft bearing, its a fair trade.
_________________ ☮️ |
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john_lessard Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2017 Posts: 103 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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Still fighting this very frustrating issue. I used a Power Bleeder to thoroughly bleed the clutch with no improvement. I think I can rule out the clutch being the issue but I guess the pilot bearing could still be acting up. I am starting to doubt that could be the issue though since the sticking happens infrequent. An improperly sized pilot bearing would always be causing problems in any gear.
I also spent some time realigning the Big Shot Shifter and linkage. As I suspected, no change in the sticking issues. I did not change the alignment between the old transaxle (which shifted great and did not stick, Bostig was installed) and new rebuilt transaxle.
I was able to recreated the sticking gear issue with the engine off and parked. It seems to be happening more in 4th than 2nd. It feels like something just mechanically stops the selector from leaving the gear. Once I "locked" the trans in gear, I crawled under the van to confirm it was not the linkage.
A light bump of the shifter will unstick the gear. I have essentially made it a habit while driving now. I'm at the point where it does not slow me down anymore, but is still very annoying.
Maybe the transaxle doesn't like Swepco 202? Thinking of swapping to Swepco 201 and using that as an opportunity to check for metal in the gear oil. I really hope this does not come to sending the transaxle back to the builder.. _________________ 1986 Tin-Top Vanagon, 2.0L Zetec, Peloquins TBD 2WD |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17009 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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Maybe it will loosen up with time, but from your last post, it’s jamming internally and for a freshend transaxle is not correct. Something got missed. It’s a pain to pull and ship and the builder probably doesn’t want to see it for a 3rd time, so I understand. I can tell you the design is, shifting is like a hot knife through butter when it’s correct. Sorry I can’t be more positive. _________________ ☮️ |
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calsurf Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2022 Posts: 120 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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Any news or update from the OP? |
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john_lessard Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2017 Posts: 103 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Sticking in Gear - Rebuilt Transaxle with a Bostig |
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calsurf wrote: |
Any news or update from the OP? |
Sorry for the incredibly late reply. You'll be unsurprised to learn I have not resolved this, and continue to live with the "sticking in gear" issue. I believe the "sticking in 2nd gear" issue has warn in, and I rarely experience that now. 4th gear, arguably the gear that sees the least amount of shifting, is still sticking. This happens specifically when I am decelerating / coasting and go to shift to neutral. I now subconsciously give the shifter a light tap when shifting out of 4th, and as long as I do that it will not stick.
I really don't want to ship the transaxle back to the builder for the 4th time and go through the pain of reinstalling it. Been too busy enjoying my van and working on other pressing projects. Sorry I can't provide a more promising update. _________________ 1986 Tin-Top Vanagon, 2.0L Zetec, Peloquins TBD 2WD |
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