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Hooks and rods and shocks
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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:09 am    Post subject: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

I'm at the point in my baja build where I'm installing the hook and rod kit on the beam, I've already got the rods in place and the beam all put together which was a chore for me as I'm new to the whole adjustable beam thing, all my other VW's were stock-ish. I have the beam fully assembled and the adjuster bolts out so it can swing through it's whole range without spring tension.

I know I'm supposed to go to full droop when the ball joints stop, back off a quarter of an inch and tack the hook on but I noticed that with the new Febi ball joints (not the clearanced lowered kind)at full droop the stock shock seems too short. If I tighten them down at the shock tower it pulls the suspension back up by a good bit.

I feel like I'd have to give up a lot of travel to protect the shocks, maybe if the shocks were a little longer but I've read in other threads on here that longer shocks aren't needed on a ball joint beam and even the class 11 guys run stock shocks so now I'm unsure what to do. Is it just that these shocks(Monroe Matic)have a particularly short stroke or am I just not accounting for something and being dumb as usual?
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

You need to limit the travel to either the travel of the ball joints or the shocks whichever is less. Donít want to use the shock as your limiter. Makes for a lousy ride or damaged shocks. I use the stock class 11 bilstein shocks and donít remember the actual travel lengths ( I had these numbers and referred to them during install) but I know that I had about an extra 1/2Ē of unused travel when I set up my stops at just under max ball joint travel.

So either the ball joints you have are giving you more travel or the shocks you have donít have enough travel. I do know that when I was researching shocks and travel of shocks and how that travel exactly was when positioned in the vehicleÖÖ. There were lots of variables that didnít match up, for example you could have plenty of actual travel in the shock but it may positioned on the vehicle where the travel is not fully used or already 1/2 used because of the mounting position. I found that many of the shock options available that ap-eared stock did not have the proper length and 0r travel to work properly. The specific ďclass 11Ē bilstein shocks seemed to be sized correctly.

I think you need to get proper shocks that meet your specific spec that can be measured now that your front end is together.
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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Yeah these shocks will definitely stop before the ball joints reach max travel and I definitely don't want to give up travel to protect an $18 Monroe shock. I had noticed that various VW parts sites sell the KYB Excel G shock (model 343135) as an extended travel off road VW shock, but I also saw people on here saying not to bother with longer travel shocks so I wasn't sure what to make of it. The shocks I have now (Monroe Matic) should be stock length and were bought back before I decided to go baja with this so I didn't factor in the lifted adjustable beam or the hook and rods, but some threads on here make it sound like stock shocks should be long enough for even the cut and turned class 11 guys so I wasn't sure what my problem was.

By Bilstein class 11 shocks do you mean the yellow ones that use the rubber bumper like original beetle shocks or the fancy off road ones with the separate tank.
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earthquake
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

I did mine with out the torsion bars and mad fixture to hold the trailing arm in place
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Its a piece of 3/8 allthread with a sleeve welded on one end that goes over the shock stud, I put the shock in and measured the limits and used the tool to lock them in place while tack welding the hooks in. I only use the Droop stop and make a urethane stop for bounce.

eQ
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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Nice,yeah I saw your pictures in the beefing up your ball joint front end thread and made one of those tools up with an old shock sleeve. What kind of shocks do you run with your setup?
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earthquake
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

I have 7100 series Bilstein's with out the reservoir, they are the ones they sold for Class 11 cars, they work very well.

eQ
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
http://www.rememberingkelly.com/

DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]
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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

The 7100 Classics (B46-0493VW) or the (24-006200)? I'm thinking these Monroe shocks might be for lowered cars even though they're not labeled that way because the specs on them for travel are pretty sad compared to all the other brands. I see a lot of sites will list different measurements for the same shock which makes researching this challenging.
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AZ-BUG
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

the Bilsteins are a little longer, and provide a bit more travel... in addition to being a much better shock.

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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Yeah I've been comparing shock length charts all day and so far it looks like the Bilstein B46-0493VW are the only ones that'll fit right.

Measuring from the bottom of the shock tower mounting hole to the center of the shock post on the lower trailing arm and maxing the ball joints out in both directions I get 17.75 inches droop and 12.50 full compression which is more than even the longer gas adjust kyb. I wonder why mine goes so high, they're normal Febi ball joints. Unless I discover a more affordable option it looks like there might be some Bilsteins in my future.
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PhillipM
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Even better the Billies are decent enough to act as the suspension stops themselves, saves messing with hooks, so long as they're not binding the balljoints at full droop.
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Schepp
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Hereís the Bilstein catalog. The 7100ís are near the very bottom.
https://cart.bilsteinus.com/Portals/0/PDF/BILSTEINORCatalog2020_WEB.pdf

I too have the class 11 shocks but with the reservoir B46-1085R. Theyíre a perfect fit and the quality of the shock is outstanding. Iím glad I didnít waste money on a cheap product. The 7100ís are also owner rebuildable which is another bonus.
Just so youíre aware Bilsteinís lead times are about 6-8mo right now. Mine took 8mo because of the whole Covid thing.
I canít attest to the performance of the shock as my car isnít finished yet.
Here is pictures of the earlier stage of my car but it shows the shocks well.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Very nice! I saw the catalog before but was confused because they sell the B46-0493VW which is a 7100, but they also sell the zinc or steel colored B46-1085R with or without the reservoir but with rebound stops plus they sell the oem replacement shock that needs all the stock beetle top buffer parts. But annoyingly they all show up in different parts of the catalog/website or not at all. I found at least 2 models that don't show up anywhere and no one lists specs for. I didn't know they had a waiting list for the shocks though.

Last night I went down another rabbit hole on those Kyb 343135's since they're the only other option and the only inexpensive choice. Found at least 10 VW parts places selling it as a shock for cut and turned beams. Looks like it's fairly commonly used, only thing you need to change is the 5/8 bushing sleeve on the bottom to a metric one, not sure if regular vw ones fit but KYB sells a sleeve kit (kit 107) with various sizes too. But at only $22 a pop I'm tempted to give them a try for now since I'm still deep into the build and won't be driving it more than around the yard for a while still. The Kyb's got more droop and a shorter compressed length than my beam so I should be able to limit the ball joints with the hooks and they'll still be placed correctly for the Bilsteins which have similar travel when I'm ready to upgrade.
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Schepp
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Yea it can be a bit confusing for sure. The different part numbers for the Bilsteinís represents the different valving options is what Iíve noticed. I ordered mine through 4 Wheel Parts. They were very helpful and gave me updates throughout the process. The thing with the VW shocks is that nobody stocks them. So itís a special order direct from Bilstein. If you choose a standard shock for the rear say 10Ē travel itís not a special order and the wait time is less. Also the 7100 series is not very common. Most 4x4 guys run the 5100 series. I also like that the 7100 shocks have heim joints on the ends instead of rubber bushings.
Theyíre not cheap but theyíre not as expensive as say Kings are. For what my car will be used for I couldnít justify the extra cost of Kings.
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DesertSasquatchXploration
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

Ive been running the stock replacement KYB gas a just from rockauto with a fancy bolt spacer and cut upper doughnut (poor mans Longer shock). Once these go i'm going to do the silver Bilsteins


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DesertSasquatchXploration
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

TDodge7 wrote:
The 7100 Classics (B46-0493VW) or the (24-006200)


The (24-006200) require a separate upper mounting part sold separately and
they are pure garbage hard as rocks and way too short. I have a full spare gas a nd tools under the hood my car wouldn't compress at all.
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Schepp
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

My thoughts behind going with the reservoir shocks was since the front travel is so small and the shocks equally small theyíre going to be working harder and heating up faster. Having the reservoir will add oil capacity since the nitrogen is now in the reservoir instead of the body.
The price difference isnít very much considering how much more youíre getting. The only issue is figuring out a place to mount the reservoir.
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TDodge7
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

I ordered the cheap extended kyb's for now but I'm definitely feeling the reservoir shocks.

I thought I saw a kit somewhere on their site or catalog with mounts and clamps to clamp the reservoir to the shock.


like that
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Or this
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



DesertSasquatchXploration that's what I figured on the 24-006200. My biggest confusion was that the B46-0493VW is a 7100 classic, but then there's the 7100 classics that are flipped over with bump stops (or not) and reservoirs (or not).

I noticed you have limiter straps on your beam but no hook and rod, in fact a great many of the people in the show your baja thread don't seem to have them either. I was under the impression the hook and rod was the "if you only make one mod" mod and that you had to make it if you don't want to blow ball joints out left and right but I'm starting to feel like I'm going kinda over kill for a baja that's going to see 7-11 parking lots more often than dirt. I'm still doing them though.
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

TDodge7 wrote:
The 7100 Classics (B46-0493VW) or the (24-006200)? I'm thinking these Monroe shocks might be for lowered cars even though they're not labeled that way because the specs on them for travel are pretty sad compared to all the other brands. I see a lot of sites will list different measurements for the same shock which makes researching this challenging.



After much research I found these the only ones to fit the 7100 classic

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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DesertSasquatchXploration
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

TDodge7
The hook and rod is really for high speed racing link pin setups.
The ball joint is really a desert cruiser setup yes with good shocks you can get going but your travel is really small. Your never going to get past 2nd sometimes 3rd if you know what's ahead.
I have the straps because I kept pulling shocks apart and I don't want to pull a ball joint either. Its just to keep everything reliable not to go faster. My shock will bottom out before the ball joints do so I do have a sacrificial stop. Once you get some seat time you will know exactly what your car can and cant do and when your going to fast. Make sure you put a fender washer on the bottom eyelet mount the shock likes to pop off sometimes and blue loctite the stud in the arm and the bolt too.
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DesertSasquatchXploration
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Hooks and rods and shocks Reply with quote

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