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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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 Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| steve244 wrote: |
40 MPG is amazing. What's the combined mpg, real life, of your bug.
If you're getting 40mpg combined, that's 1 gallon to go 40 miles. The equivalent kWh is 32.97.
My Leaf burns 12kWh week in and week out to go 40+ miles driving from Marietta to midtown Atlanta daily. Driving excessively fast (75-85) with the A/C blasting.
A gallon of regular is $3.20 today in GA.
12kWh costs $1.44 from the comfort of my carport.
Who's your daddy? |
I once drove from San Diego to just east of Chicago and kept track of my mileage for the whole trip. Everything combined, including city, highway and getting up, over and down the Rockies (with a couple hundred pounds of all my shit in the back of the car), I averaged a little over 36 mpg. If I really get on it at every stop light and go flat out on all the lonely sections of highway, I can get down into the low 30's mpg.
$1.44 for 12 kWh? Man, that's cheap! I'm paying close to $2.54 for 12 kWh.
I don't remember if you said, but how do you know your Leaf is using 12 kWh to go 40 miles?
P.S. If you look at it from a different perspective, $3.20 for 33 kWh of gasoline works out to a little less than 10 cents per kWh. $1.44 for 12 kWh is 12 cents per kWh. $2.54 for 12 kWh is 21 cents (more than double the price of gasoline). Hah! Gasoline wins! |
The charging stations at work tell me how much I charge, and I know how much I drive. The base model Leaf doesn't give you that in a gui. (ETA: it does give you efficiency expressed as kWh/mile but I never looked at it.)
Typical round trip of 40 miles is 12kWh. OW is 6kWh. The outliers are more or less.
Here's a pdf with data (you'll have to trust me on the miles driven):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mrbGZiwRPL5Osn3kicrsLgo8YoaArjK1/view?usp=sharing
P.S. efficiency is everything.
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a Leaf 
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way...
Last edited by steve244 on Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
Alice is expected to be delivered in 2024, and just made its first flight this September.
Please note its cargo capacity... from the DHL link, it carries a max of 2,600lbs, just a bit more than the tare weight of the transport dollies that move individual freight containers (ULDs) around to the actual operating large transport category air freighters I work on. More perspective, my father in law just took a 6x8 single axle trailer with junk to the local dump with his 2016 Ram 2500, and said he weighed in total right about 9k lbs, or roughly three times more than the total weight capacity of Alice... The transport capacity is not there yet for electric aviation. You can say "its coming" or "it just needs XYZ and it will be great" but the fact is, right now it's more economical to operate petroleum-fueled jet engines. Even the alternative Jet-A biofuels are subsidized, as I understand.
Not to dump on the aircraft... or electric flight in general. I think the concept is really cool and it's good to see engineers think outside the box reaching for what is currently not possible.
An electric aircraft has a place.. but right now that place is not anywhere near replacing the current jet-a fueled fleets of the world. Legislation or economics seem to be the only way to change that, usually at the expense of the consumer as we pay higher taxes to subsidize EPA pet projects or absorb a general increase in price for goods and services. E.G., the 'fuel surcharge' I'm sure we've all seen on airline tickets and delivery services.
These are just opinions.. but I hope I can provide some perspective from my industry with what I have personally seen and can attest to over the last 15 years. I'll see myself out the front door.... |
It'll definitely have an impact on regional, sub 300 mile travel. Soon. Executive airports will be opening up taxi service that's competitive with the majors. A flight from Marietta to Memphis will be summoned on an uber-like app.
Medium and long haul will have to rely on carbon neutral fuel for the foreseeable future.
But I bet dirigibles make a comeback for freight and air-cruising before then...
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a Leaf
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way... |
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Evil Clown
Live
Joined: January 08, 2009
Posts: 1135
Location: Wacky Macs
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Link
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CARRY ON
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| I'll take a Happy Meal with Prozac please |
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| kiss my airy VW ass |
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| German word for constapation: Farfrompoopin |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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[email protected]
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 15986
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| steve244 wrote: |
Other than tire rotation and periodic brake caliper pin lubrication, what service does Tesla call for?
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um, water leaks, door handle issues, ADAS calibrations, module replacements I mean the list goes on dude. shit breaks on daily drivers. but when you have a base model golf cart like yourself I suppose there isn't much to break, but when it does it won't be cheap.
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| Are we talking warranty claims? Alrighty then! I'm sure eurocarskilz will become a factory authorized warranty service centre. And gouge his customers. |
just fair market value plus 10% for the big guy
I run a business, not a soup kitchen. I charge what I charge because by the time I see a car, it's been everywhere "trying to save money" so I have to un-fuck it before I can fix the original problem.
I'd rather have fewer high end clients than 10k low end bottom feeders. When I got into this trade in 1995, trained by GM in '96-'97 and worked for them until '99 when I realized the real money was in eurotrash. You won't get a Buick owner to spend Volvo/Audi/BMW money. Just like you won't get a Nissan owner to spend Tesla money.
everyone I deal with gets treated fairly and leaves with a repair that is RIGHT the FIRST time. In the rare occasion I have a comeback it's due to a defective part and that gets top priority. That said, I haven't had a comeback since I left the dealer
EDIT
Not true. Had squeaky brakes and had to warranty a set of pads
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1484
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| steve244 wrote: |
The charging stations at work tell me how much I charge, and I know how much I drive. The base model Leaf doesn't give you that in a gui. (ETA: it does give you efficiency expressed as kWh/mile but I never looked at it.)
Typical round trip of 40 miles is 12kWh. OW is 6kWh. The outliers are more or less.
Here's a pdf with data (you'll have to trust me on the miles driven):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mrbGZiwRPL5Osn3kicrsLgo8YoaArjK1/view?usp=sharing
P.S. efficiency is everything. |
Aaah, you're using a ChargePoint station at work. So that's how you get it so cheap! The company that owns the charging station can charge whatever they want per kWh (they can even, and sometimes do, make it "free" if they want). They just have to pay ChargePoint a commission for using the station, and also pay the electric bill, of course.
Ok, so from your point of view, you are getting 12 kWh of juice for a buck forty-four, and that gets you the 40 miles to and from work. That's a pretty sweet deal for you, no doubt about it!
But here's what's really going on: 12 kWh went into your Leaf battery, but more like 14 kWh went through the charging station. To get 14 kWh to the charging station, about 16 kWh were generated at the power plant, which required about 23 kWh of fuel (probably coal) to generate it. The company you work for then paid the electric company for those 23 kWh, which probably cost them somewhere in the neighborhood of $2.50. That's assuming 14 cents per kWh, plus standard Customer and Energy Use surcharges. "Customer Charges" and "Energy Use Charges" is code for, "you think you used 14 kWh, but you really used a lot more than that, and we're not givin' you nuthin' for free". Different electric companies have different names for these surcharges, but they all amount to the same thing.
$2.50 to go 40 miles is still pretty good though, regardless of who actually had to pay for it. But that's only if you're paying 14 cents for a kWh. Go ask the people in Connecticut, or California, or Hawaii how much they pay for a kWh, and see if they think 14 kWh of electricity to go 40 miles is still worth it!
One other thing: you're right when you say efficiency is everything. But I noticed that the Nissan Leaf loses A LOT of efficiency when driving on the highway compared to driving in the city (180 Wh/mile city vs. 290 Wh/mile highway). I assume this is because electric motors produce max torque at zero RPM, so maybe they're happiest in stop-and-go traffic. I was very surprised by this, seeing as how the exact opposite is true for ICE.
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1484
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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By the way, just to put this in a proper perspective, I use about 12 kWh of electricity on average every day at my house. If I had an electric car that used 12 to 14 kWh to get me to and from work, that would be the same amount of electricity that I use in my entire house every day.
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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Abscate 
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 20377
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| By the way, just to put this in a proper perspective, I use about 12 kWh of electricity on average every day at my house. If I had an electric car that used 12 to 14 kWh to get me to and from work, that would be the same amount of electricity that I use in my entire house every day |
That’s covered above upthread
Average house uses 30 kwhr per day.
Average EV commute is 10 kWhr per day.
The point being the grid isn’t overwhelmed by EV charging as it can be done off peak at night.
12 kwhr per day is extraordinarily low...well done. That’s greener than any EV !
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 10191
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| I assume this is because electric motors produce max torque at zero RPM, so maybe they're happiest in stop-and-go traffic. I was very surprised by this, seeing as how the exact opposite is true for ICE. |
This blanket statement is not entirely true. Diesel engines are more efficient at light loads than gasoline engines. The same is true for propane. Both will idle all night without a noticeable change on the fuel gauge. A gasoline engine will use a half of a tank overnight. (Yes this is done at low temps and high wind chills in this part of the world.)
My Buddy bought a diesel Rabbit back in '75 and religiously logged every tank of fuel. Highway mileage was 60 mpg and around town it was consistently 55 mpg. Running at city speeds without the stops and starts I suspect could have yielded a higher mileage number than all highway.
I too have logged many many tanks of fuel over the years with our TDIs but only about 5% or less of our miles are city so I have not seen that trend.
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I never finish anything, I have a black belt in partial arts! |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
Aaah, you're using a ChargePoint station at work. So that's how you get it so cheap! The company that owns the charging station can charge whatever they want per kWh (they can even, and sometimes do, make it "free" if they want). They just have to pay ChargePoint a commission for using the station, and also pay the electric bill, of course.
Ok, so from your point of view, you are getting 12 kWh of juice for a buck forty-four, and that gets you the 40 miles to and from work. That's a pretty sweet deal for you, no doubt about it! |
You're so easy...
$0.12/kWh is what I pay AT HOME to Marietta Power and Water whether it's for drying my clothes or charging the car. GA has come a long way since Deliverance. Can you squeal like a pig?*
At work it's "free". I have to share it with foogin' f150s and other riffraff though:
| Floating VW wrote: |
But here's what's really going on: 12 kWh went into your Leaf battery, but more like 14 kWh went through the charging station. To get 14 kWh to the charging station, about 16 kWh were generated at the power plant, which required about 23 kWh of fuel (probably coal) to generate it. The company you work for then paid the electric company for those 23 kWh, which probably cost them somewhere in the neighborhood of $2.50. That's assuming 14 cents per kWh, plus standard Customer and Energy Use surcharges. "Customer Charges" and "Energy Use Charges" is code for, "you think you used 14 kWh, but you really used a lot more than that, and we're not givin' you nuthin' for free". Different electric companies have different names for these surcharges, but they all amount to the same thing.
$2.50 to go 40 miles is still pretty good though, regardless of who actually had to pay for it. But that's only if you're paying 14 cents for a kWh. Go ask the people in Connecticut, or California, or Hawaii how much they pay for a kWh, and see if they think 14 kWh of electricity to go 40 miles is still worth it! |
Lot to break down here. No idea what my employer pays. I suspect commercial rates are less than domestic. But my employer has a couple hundred solar panels. So technically I'm charging for free (if we discount the capital cost of solar panels).
On the losses at the Charging station. It's just a switch, not a transformer. The car has its own rectifier to charge the batteries. So what it says at the charging station is what I consume. We've already discussed line losses due to resistance.
On the costs in CT , CA or HI, I don't expect anyone to pay more for using electric vehicles than gasoline. Do you?
| Floating VW wrote: |
| One other thing: you're right when you say efficiency is everything. But I noticed that the Nissan Leaf loses A LOT of efficiency when driving on the highway compared to driving in the city (180 Wh/mile city vs. 290 Wh/mile highway). I assume this is because electric motors produce max torque at zero RPM, so maybe they're happiest in stop-and-go traffic. I was very surprised by this, seeing as how the exact opposite is true for ICE. |
Yeah baby, you've just hit on the true cost of driving fast! Friction my child. Friction. This affects everyone. Maybe EVs a bit less as they are designed to be slippery. Vanagons not so much. Well that and regenerative braking. You keep forgetting that bit.
Everybody sing!!!
It's fun to be: S M U G... It's fun to be: S M U G... La Da Di Da, La Da Di Da...**
*
https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-...ta%2C%20GA
**to the tune of Village People's YMCA. crap I can't get that out of my head now.
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a Leaf
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way...
Last edited by steve244 on Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 10191
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Wind resistance not friction!
Yes the vast majority of drivers out there have zero comprehension that driving fast costs money. Even with record high fuel prices NO ONE is slowing down! I don't get it! 
Enjoy the saving on power for your car while you can. It will change big time and I suspect it will happen in the near future to bring the cost of driving up on par with all other energy sources. The correction has to happen or someone is going to be down on corporate profit. It's just the way the free market system works. Get everyone in at basement bargain prices and then tighten down the screws!
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I never finish anything, I have a black belt in partial arts! |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 906
Location: Norway, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Why is there a power cord going to your Vanagon? Those engine block heaters won't work on an ACVW unless you were lying to me!.  |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| oprn wrote: |
Wind resistance not friction!
Yes the vast majority of drivers out there have zero comprehension that driving fast costs money. Even with record high fuel prices NO ONE is slowing down! I don't get it!
Enjoy the saving on power for your car while you can. It will change big time and I suspect it will happen in the near future to bring the cost of driving up on par with all other energy sources. The correction has to happen or someone is going to be down on corporate profit. It's just the way the free market system works. Get everyone in at basement bargain prices and then tighten down the screws! |
sheesh. WIND RESISTANCE IS FRICTION.
Energy isn't subsidized in this state. Unless you count the federal support for nuclear. Plant Vogtle 3 & 4 are costing the taxpayers a pretty penny and bankrupted Westinghouse.
ELECTRIC IS 3 TIMES AS EFFICIENT!!!
| Bonesberg55 wrote: |
| Why is there a power cord going to your Vanagon? Those engine block heaters won't work on an ACVW unless you were lying to me!. |
vanagon got jealous and wants its battery charged too.
Link
_________________
82 AC vanagon approx 200K miles (3K are mine).
DD is a Leaf
The Vanagon's drivetrain and chassis restomod thread. Best sung to the tune of I Did It My Way...
Last edited by steve244 on Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 10191
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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There are block heaters for any kind of engine. We have had them for air cooled engines for 60 years here in Canada.
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I never finish anything, I have a black belt in partial arts! |
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steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 885
Location: GA
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Onceler
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1592
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| oprn wrote: |
Enjoy the saving on power for your car while you can. It will change big time and I suspect it will happen in the near future to bring the cost of driving up on par with all other energy sources. The correction has to happen or someone is going to be down on corporate profit. It's just the way the free market system works. Get everyone in at basement bargain prices and then tighten down the screws! |
DIY used solar panels for the win! But maybe not as rates do seem to go up when usage goes down. Would have to cut the cord 100% at some point.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 20377
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Young man, there’s a place you camp
You can charge there, when you your low on your amps
You don’t need…no…stinky….fossil fuels…
Charge charge charge charge charge!
It’s fun to post on the S….M..B…A
And watch all the Nabobs go ape
It’s a beautiful thing , the electric bling…it will make you …..happy
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steve244
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Location: GA
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 906
Location: Norway, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| I get those obsessive mind tunes quite frequently. Lately its been Green River and since my all-time favorite band is CCR its a good one. |
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