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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:37 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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Yes, it’s true. 10L and 13 inch south bends typically run more than the 16 inch. This one was just small enough to be moved with my 2 ton engine hoist with the boom extended half way out. Catalog lists the weight as just shy of 1800 Lbs. I was able to roll it around pretty easy with the engine hoist. Balanced perfectly just ahead of the headstock with the saddle and tailstock moved all the way over towards the motor base.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5966
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:02 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| nsracing wrote: |
Thosed smaller ones are more expensive than the really big gigantic ones. Not everyone can bring home a 10,000 lb behemoth. But those 1000-pounders you can put on your back and bring it home.  |
Truth. I got two 16x60 southbound lathes for a grand several years back. 3, 4, and six jaw chucks with one, and a full collet set with the other. I kept the better one and all the tooling, and sold the other but included delivery as not many people can move such things. It sold in a day. It's too long for 99% of what I do, but every once in a while I need to make a driveshaft and then I'm thankful to have it.
For home shop use I would like to have a gap bed lathe that can swing a full 15" wheel. I often have to straighten wheels, or cut the centers out and weld them into new barrels. The 16" south bend isn't big enough, so I've been using a modified drum brake lathe. It works but is pretty gnarly to use.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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RickS
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:19 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| esde wrote: |
| nsracing wrote: |
| Thosed smaller ones are more expensive than the really big gigantic ones. Not everyone can bring home a 10,000 lb behemoth. But those 1000-pounders you can put on your back and bring it home. |
Truth. I got two 16x60 southbound lathes for a grand several years back. 3, 4, and six jaw chucks with one, and a full collet set with the other. I kept the better one and all the tooling, and sold the other but included delivery as not many people can move such things. It sold in a day. It's too long for 99% of what I do, but every once in a while I need to make a driveshaft and then I'm thankful to have it.
For home shop use I would like to have a gap bed lathe that can swing a full 15" wheel. I often have to straighten wheels, or cut the centers out and weld them into new barrels. The 16" south bend isn't big enough, so I've been using a modified drum brake lathe. It works but is pretty gnarly to use. |
You need to find a SB16/24 which is a SB16 with 4” riser blocks. Maybe even find a great deal on one that the bed is shot and transfer the appropriate parts to yours. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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So here is a question for guys experienced in honing cylinders.
I would like to bore out and shorten some 913 Deutz cylinders for a future T4 engine. The 913 cylinders are 102mm, and I would like to take it up to 103. When boring the cylinder, how much material do you leave on it for an automotive machine shop to hone it to final dimensions?
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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rodeking
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017
Posts: 369
Location: near Buffalo NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| Ask your machine shop how much to leave. Great thread. Haven't been on here in a while, life gets in the way. I will post some pics of my 1958 LeBlond Regal 13, Excello 602 and SB shaper. I don't pretend to be a machinist but I took a machine shop course at a community college while I was going to engineering school, the only course in 4 years that I understood, LOL.I made my own rotary phase converter with a 10 HP new idler I got for 100, two big a#$ GE contactors I got for a prayer and of course a few capacitors. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| leave .005" unless you bore it very rough than leave more. a good boring bar(rottler) will fracture the iron about .002" deep witch is. .004" dia. so leave .005" to be sure it's honed back to good material. many times many machine shops leave .002 0r .003 to be honed out and they end up not lasting as well as destroying the pistons with all the iron that"breaks off" while it's running. and cheep china or cheep cast iron rings like the grant shit just makes it worse. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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Traditionally instructions (from lets say sunnen), would be bore no closer than .005" short of size.
Rough hone to to .003 from size, then start your base finish.
That is conservative IMO but still a good place to start, for your first few hundred.
Using the AMC C4 I now bore .003" -.004" short, but that is a very large and very good boring machine and I'm quite good at running it.
Mostly just saying that to pis off mark. Best to play it safe.
But it depends on size too. a 2" bore I'd bore .002" short.
And old fashoned and worn out boring bar..... (like one shop I've done honing for), then you'd best to leave .006"
One guy brought in harley cylinders he bored himself with his bridgeport and it looked like some kind of a failed threading operation. 
As they say your results may vary, but for sure the worse your results are the more you should leave. |
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nsracing
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Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9462
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:13 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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It all depends on how bad the taper is from the roughing cuts. The idea is to leave enough material so after you hone to size, you actually got a straight hole.
Am I close, Modok?  |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: San Diego
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:12 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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I talked with my local automotive machine shop. They recommended no more than 10 thou of material to hone out, and that 5 thou of material to hone out would be good. Sounds reasonable to me.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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Has anyone come across a source for prints of VW engine parts? I would be interested in complete prints for Type 4 heads or cases. So far, this is all I have been able to turn up.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2022 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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I have been experimenting on some junk bolts/all-thread, trying to find a tool I like which could be use to create waisted shank fasteners. I tried rounded nose left hand and right hand tools, but didn’t like switching tools. Then I found this RCMT10T3M0 round insert. Looks promising so far. It is tough getting it started in the threads, but once it is in, it worked surprisingly well.
To make something like a waisted shank head stud, I will definitely need to rig up a follow test for the lathe, but this might be the ticket. Turning down some 180,000 PSI rolled threaded rod, and then polishing, could make some nice heavy duty custom length Type 4 head studs.
Best to experiment on scraps. Good high strength rolled all-thread is not cheap.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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I got a chance to play around with some more scrap threaded rod to figure out the best way to turn waisted shank head studs.
My problem now is that I don’t like how I would have to rig up a follow rest to reduce chatter. I would have to turn an inch of so, stop, choke up on the support fingers, and start again. I wish I could do it in one continuous operation rather than stop/start. 
And this is why we experiment with cheap scrap instead of diving in head first with $$$ rolled 12.9 (180,000 psi) threaded rod.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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Chickensoup
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Has anyone come across a source for prints of VW engine parts? I would be interested in complete prints for Type 4 heads or cases. So far, this is all I have been able to turn up.
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Fr tho. I've searched Many times with high hopes, but Google ain't giving up the goods.
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Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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nogoodwithusernames
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Joined: November 10, 2014
Posts: 599
Location: CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:44 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
I got a chance to play around with some more scrap threaded rod to figure out the best way to turn waisted shank head studs.
My problem now is that I don’t like how I would have to rig up a follow rest to reduce chatter. I would have to turn an inch of so, stop, choke up on the support fingers, and start again. I wish I could do it in one continuous operation rather than stop/start.
And this is why we experiment with cheap scrap instead of diving in head first with $$$ rolled 12.9 (180,000 psi) threaded rod.
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Does your follower have enough surface area to be okay riding on the threaded portion without damage? The spinning threads will want to wear away the follower I think, but you could set it up to ride on the headstock side of your cut so you don't have to adjust to ride on the cut part of the threaded rod as you get going.
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71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
74 914, 2.0L w/ D-Jet
-Derek |
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RWK
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1348
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:26 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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Also the higher hardness threaded rod will cut MUCH differently.
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:22 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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It does cut differently. I tried a few 12.9 bolts, and chewing the threads off is a little more dramatic, but once you have something smooth, it turns alright.
As for the follow rest, I have 3/4” brass rods.
I wonder about putting a center in the brass rods, and then capturing a 8mm ball bearing in it. That way I could plunge my cutter, adjust the follower rest, then turn all the way to the other end without having to stop. As long as the ball bearing is less than 10mm (diameter of my insert), it could be left engaged the whole time without bumping into the radius at either end of the shank. I would probably have to chew off the threads before the follower could ride on it, but surface finish doesn’t matter until after the threads are gone anyways.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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RWK
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Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1348
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:17 am Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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Your tool radius is causing some of the deflection problem.
put your transition radius's in first then use a smaller radius tool (.016-.03) to finish between, you will still need a follow rest.
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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| I've thought it might also help to have the stud in tension, but that's not simple to try. I used a pointy tool then ground the radius after. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Machine Work Thread |
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Two separate operations could be done. First durning the radius and either end, then straight turning the center. I have also considered dressing a grinding wheel and setting up a tool post grinder on the lathe.
At any rate, shorter waisted shank cylinder head stud prototype number one completed.
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