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oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions
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scottyrocks
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:53 pm    Post subject: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I am posting this thread because I have some questions that I have not seen posted together in relation to each other, or not at all.

I am looking to do what I hope will be a small project, in two parts.

My car is a 1963 Beetle with an almost completely stock stale air engine.

Part One: I want to combine this https://www.busdepot.com/j11572, or this https://www.busdepot.com/j11556, both Dipstick Oil Temperature Senders, with an oil temperature gauge, either analog or digital. I was able to confirm on the phone that the 11572, at least, will fit a Beetle, although it's not mentioned in the product description.

Note: I have received the sender, and it is way too long, and doesn't anchor securely in the oil dipstick hole. I was told over the phone that it would fit. Should I be pushing it with some more force so that it bends inside the sump or would I risk breaking it? To me it seems it should not have to be forced. They have agreed to take it back should I decide not to keep it.

Part Two: my freshly gone-through, perfectly running engine does not have a thermostat or any of the related parts installed. I have a box of what I think contains most of the parts.

I was thinking of installing only the throttle ring assembly, and then rigging up a cable-type system from the top of the ring, in through the passenger compartment, secured to the tunnel, and terminating somewhere near the shifter. The throttle ring end of the cable sheath would be anchored to a homemade bracket mounted to the top of the fan shroud/housing.

The cable would be a push/pull, open/close setup, similar to the gear-change system on a bicycle, to manually open and close the throttle ring, based on the temperatures I see on the oil temp gauge outlined in Part One. When completed it would be adjusted so that whatever lever device I choose would move the ring from closed to 20mm open, as per 'the book.'

My main reason for all of this is not too much heat, but rather, not enough heat. I've been reading a lot here about our cars' air-cooled engines not getting warm enough quickly enough, or not at all, during cold(er) weather, leading to excess engine wear.

I am somewhat obsessive about things such as emergency brake handles and choke cables. A long time ago I owned car with a manual choke, and was very diligent at keeping it in the right position for what the car needed to run properly until it warmed up. Every car I have ever owned since with an emergency brake handle has me checking it repeatedly while driving to see that it has been completely released. I now want to be able to close the ring when the car is cold, and use the proposed newly installed oil temp gauge to know when to open the ring. My obsessive behavior in this regard assures me I will not forget to open the ring.

Am I out of my bird on this one? Does it appear to be feasible?

Of course, all (constructive) comments, suggestions, as well as criticisms are welcomed.
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I'm not sure if the spring thermostat? Thing for the ring is hard to come by? I've only worked on one stale air setup so idk if that stuff is hard to source.

I'm sure you could rig up something.. seems like it would be a lot of work. And don't forget to open it. That could be catastrophic.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

The thermostats from newer to older are interchangeable as long as the correct temperature is used. The stale air thermostat bracket is different than the fresh air bracket. Personally I think it would be easier to source original stale air parts and install. Once installed it's a set it and forget it deal.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I also should have asked if anyone knows of an oil dipstick hole oil temperature sender, the type that can be wired to a dashboard gauge, that definitely fits in a Beetle.

Also, is the bus oil sump different, meaning deeper, than the Beetle's?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

Get a sender that replaces the sump plate drain plug.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I'd rather fix the air ring, connectors and t-stat, and get the ring set up spaced properly than dick around with some home made set up.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

When I had the engine on the bench I attempted to fit the thermostat system parts I have, but could not figure out how it all went together, assuming I have the correct parts.

I also have never been able to find either a photo, or better, a cutaway drawing that shows how the parts all fit together in place.

I am concerned about the junction at the yellow arrow, pictured here:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What is supporting this end of the heavy rod that holds the ring? Is it held up by the bracket that disappears into the tin and (presumably) connects to the thin rod that goes down to the thermostat? It seems there should be a bracket or hole on this side that is similar to the one on the other (left) side - the threaded hole in the case that the rod bolts into. Or is the connection on the left side stout enough to support the rod and the ring?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

Here is a rough diagram of what I am thinking of:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The thin black lines represent a 90* bracket. These are readily available in different sizes.

The pink line and thick black line is basically a bicycle brake or shifter cable and sheath. The pink line (steel cable) is connected to the top of the ring. The other end is in the passenger compartment. Fastening all of this will not be a problem. What I haven't worked out yet is the exact routing through the firewall, though I suspect it will emerge into the passenger compartment from under the rear seat.

I would also have to see if the routing, combined with the length, would prohibit smooth operation over the 2 cm push and pull to open and close the ring.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Get a sender that replaces the sump plate drain plug.


I read some other threads re the different places to install an oil temperature sender. If I remember correctly, the drain plug option could be affected by both external temperature and road schmutz?

Is there a dipstick sender that will definitely work in a Beetle?

And why doesn't the bus sender I received seem to fit in my Beetle?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I think that spring rod is hollow and slips over a pin that's attached to a case stud?
Ike I said, I've only messed with one a long time ago. It didn't seem overly complicated when I took it apart to reseal the engine.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

There's a big rod that bolts to the case that supports everything:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is another piece that slides over the rod so the warm-up ring can pivot - that's the piece bolted to warm-up ring.
This
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Your yellow arrow points to that circlip above, which prevents it from sliding off the rod.

Cutaway engine (sort of a small pic though):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Close up of parts underneath the shroud
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

There you go. Everett got you covered with some pretty good pictures.

That cut-away engine is pretty cool. Is that yours Everett? Or just a photo? Pretty neat.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

The cutaway engine is not mine but it is owned by a member here - that's in his shop/warehouse in N. CA.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

Those are best pictures I have seen of how it goes together.

So the big rod is essentially bolted to the case on only one side.

The thermostat expands, pushes the small rod up, which pushes the bracket arm up, which rotates the big rod, which moves the ring away from the fan by 20 mm.

Looks like I'm gonna have to pull the engine again.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I've swapped out the T-stat and made adjustments to the fan ring with the engine in place. It would certainly be easier with engine out.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

I just love those cut-away automotive mechanisms and firearms.

If you get that manual temp control assembled, installed, and de-bugged, try to work into the project to make sure that you are the only driver.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

difrangia wrote:
I just love those cut-away automotive mechanisms and firearms.

If you get that manual temp control assembled, installed, and de-bugged, try to work into the project to make sure that you are the only driver.


Oh, that's never been an issue. No one in my family has the ability or desire to learn how to drive my cars.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

my59 wrote:
I've swapped out the T-stat and made adjustments to the fan ring with the engine in place. It would certainly be easier with engine out.


I did buy a borescope about a week ago which should help me to see things in places where I can't jam my big head into.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

So to refocus on the dipstick sender, is there one that will definitely work in a Beetle?

And why doesn't the bus sender I received seem to fit in my Beetle? Are the engines that different?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: oil temp sender and (manually operated] throttle ring questions Reply with quote

They sent you the wrong one, It it's too long, then its for a Type 4 engine.
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