| Author |
Message |
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:30 pm Post subject: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
 |
|
Looks like I'm going to be needing a new Napoleon's Hat for my Super, along with the lower section of the firewall - it's rusty as hell and massively botched- one side was rotted out and welded to the body, the other is a wooden block with filler over it!
I've been looking at parts, and the lower firewall repair section is the same for the standard bug and the Super, but the Napoleon's hat is different.
Main difference I can see, apart from the Super one being 3x more expensive, is that it's got an extra little pressing just in front of the body mount which seems to be prefectly shaped to turn into a rust trap.
Now, since the floorpans will be the same and since the lower firewall repair's the same, is there any reason why I couldn't use the cheaper (and presumably less rust-prone) standard Beetle Napoleon's hat? Is the central tunnel a different size or suchlike, to expain the extra cost? It looks different in the pictures, but they're taken from a different angle so that could be deceptive.
Standard bug Napoleon's hat:
Super Napoleon's hat:
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
busman78
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004
Posts: 4522
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| I see one thing, from the pictures the master cylinder mounting holes are different. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| busman78 wrote: |
| I see one thing, from the pictures the master cylinder mounting holes are different. |
Ah, good point 
But since my Super's right hand drive (I'm in the UK) I'm going to have to redrill the holes anyway, so that one's not a big deal for me, at least.
I did find a thread elsewhere where someone asked the same question and the answer was the Super's Napoleons Hat is beefed up to deal with the extra stresses of the Mcpherson Strut suspension. But that makes no sense because the inner wings take that stress rather than the frame head on the original Beetle, so in theory the metal could be thinner, not thicker. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Buggeee
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016
Posts: 4408
Location: Stuck in Ohio
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| busman78 wrote: |
| I see one thing, from the pictures the master cylinder mounting holes are different. |
Ah, good point
But since my Super's right hand drive (I'm in the UK) I'm going to have to redrill the holes anyway, so that one's not a big deal for me, at least.
I did find a thread elsewhere where someone asked the same question and the answer was the Super's Napoleons Hat is beefed up to deal with the extra stresses of the Mcpherson Strut suspension. But that makes no sense because the inner wings take that stress rather than the frame head on the original Beetle, so in theory the metal could be thinner, not thicker. |
It's worth considering that the frame head anchors the control arms on our Super Beetles... and that this bug in particular is being built to be carrying hundreds of pounds of batteries.
From the pictures the standard frame head is made like a pile of wet dog doo.
At least the super frame head in the picture looks like it was stamped from molds that still have their shape. If its thicker metal that would be good too.
I have not done this repair. I have followed some Samba threads that share the experience. Fitment of an aftermarket napolean hat may be an adventure in any event. I would start with the better part.
Let's step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture. In the US, the difference in price is $100 USD ($55 vs. $155). Now hold that up for comparison with the true measure of cost in this project - your time. Just beyond that ledger entry is the battery bank, controller, charger, motor...
There is only one way through the mud-bog you are mired in right now, and that is straight ahead, full throttle, no apologies and take no prisoners.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
_________________
1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
| SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
| Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Buggeee
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016
Posts: 4408
Location: Stuck in Ohio
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| ...one side was rotted out and welded to the body, the other is a wooden block with filler over it! |
When I spend a few days in purgatory, I will know that it is in payment for having reached over to the flower bed, grabbing a piece of mulch, and using that to block the back of a small hole while I spread bondo the rear corner of my Bay Bus. In fairness though, I was 16 years old, had bought the bus for $200 and the other areas were properly supported by pop-rivited aluminum roof flashing. 
Ah, those were the days of disposable VWs. Like the endless miles of woodland, who would have though there would ever be a limit to the harvest?
_________________
1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
| SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
| Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| Buggeee wrote: |
| mj2k wrote: |
| ...one side was rotted out and welded to the body, the other is a wooden block with filler over it! |
When I spend a few days in purgatory, I will know that it is in payment for having reached over to the flower bed, grabbing a piece of mulch, and using that to block the back of a small hole while I spread bondo the rear corner of my Bay Bus. In fairness though, I was 16 years old, had bought the bus for $200 and the other areas were properly supported by pop-rivited aluminum roof flashing. |
Ha ha, did you restore this bug too? 
As for the parts cost, I was more thinking about the extra rust trap built into the Super version than the price, but every little saving adds up...
Good point on the condition of the replacement part, I think only Klokkerholm make them, and their spares are made from wafer thin metal which you can bend with strong finger pressure, so using the more expensive / better shaped part might well be a good idea, rust traps and all.
I'd consider repairing the original if there was enough of it left to repair, but now that block of wood's gone the master cylinder flexes a little when the brakes are applied, so I suspect there's not enough left to patch up.
Edit: re-checked the parts, the standard Beettle one is Brazilian OEM, and the Super part is made by Klokkerholm. Normally I'd say the OEM part would be better, but not sure with Brazilian parts - are they better than aftermarket or worse? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| Turns out the site which said the lower bulkhead repair section was the same for standard and super is wrong, they are very different. So this all becomes a bit academic really, it'll have to be the proper Super Napoleons Hat whether I like it or not, otherwise nothing's going to fit together properly... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beetlenut
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 2983
Location: RI
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| Turns out the site which said the lower bulkhead repair section was the same for standard and super is wrong, they are very different. So this all becomes a bit academic really, it'll have to be the proper Super Napoleons Hat whether I like it or not, otherwise nothing's going to fit together properly... |
Just reading this thread. Having replaced both, I was going to point out that the super is wider than a standard from the A-pillar forward. So no, the parts are not interchangeable. You also didn't say what year super you have. The parts for the 71-72 super are a bit different from the 73+ supers.
The firewall is a bear to replace, and I did it while also replacing the spare tire well.
I kept the original center section metal of the Napoleon's hat, and just used the ends from the replacement, which were rotted on my car. I also replaced the entire bottom section of the nap hat.
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:30 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| beetlenut wrote: |
Just reading this thread. Having replaced both, I was going to point out that the super is wider than a standard from the A-pillar forward. So no, the parts are not interchangeable. You also didn't say what year super you have. The parts for the 71-72 super are a bit different from the 73+ supers.
The firewall is a bear to replace, and I did it while also replacing the spare tire well.
I kept the original center section metal of the Napoleon's hat, and just used the ends from the replacement, which were rotted on my car. I also replaced the entire bottom section of the nap hat.
|
It was a quote from you in another thread which made me re-examine the bulkhead design, so thanks for that  Mine's a 73 (curved windscreen, still with the older style struts), no idea whether the Klokkerholm panel is pre or post 72 though.
I think the front end on mine is going to be very difficult to repair - it looked great when I got it, but it's so badly botched I've got the spare wheel well to replace, along with the right hand front wing, bulkhead lower section and Napoleons hat ends. And I suspect I might need to do the whole hat, judging by the ominous cracking and flexing it does when I press hard on the brake pedal now I've removed that piece of wood |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| Buggeee wrote: |
It's worth considering that the frame head anchors the control arms on our Super Beetles... |
That reminds me, whilst I was fiddling about with the suspension I realized something scary - the castor (fore / aft movement) of the wheels is controlled by the anti roll bar because the control arm has only one anchor. And since the steering's mounted on the inner wings (at least for the steering box type) and the stresses from the struts go through the strut tops and into the inner wings, that means all the nice, thick metal in the frame head is doing is acting as a fulcrum for the suspension, and won't be under any significant stress unless you corner at speeds the rest of the bug can't cope with (!) or hit a kerb.
Which means scarily, the super's ability to stay on the road is entirely reliant on the thin, rusty bits we pretty much all have to repair as a matter of course Does make you wonder how many bondo-filled Supers and Type 3s on the road in the 70s-80s were one good sneeze away from disaster... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
H2OSB
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 1291
Location: Modesto, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| Buggeee wrote: |
It's worth considering that the frame head anchors the control arms on our Super Beetles... |
That reminds me, whilst I was fiddling about with the suspension I realized something scary - the castor (fore / aft movement) of the wheels is controlled by the anti roll bar because the control arm has only one anchor. And since the steering's mounted on the inner wings (at least for the steering box type) and the stresses from the struts go through the strut tops and into the inner wings, that means all the nice, thick metal in the frame head is doing is acting as a fulcrum for the suspension, and won't be under any significant stress unless you corner at speeds the rest of the bug can't cope with (!) or hit a kerb.
Which means scarily, the super's ability to stay on the road is entirely reliant on the thin, rusty bits we pretty much all have to repair as a matter of course Does make you wonder how many bondo-filled Supers and Type 3s on the road in the 70s-80s were one good sneeze away from disaster... |
What a realist. Now I'm depressed.
H2OSB
_________________
(o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
beetlenut
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009
Posts: 2983
Location: RI
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| Buggeee wrote: |
It's worth considering that the frame head anchors the control arms on our Super Beetles... |
That reminds me, whilst I was fiddling about with the suspension I realized something scary - the castor (fore / aft movement) of the wheels is controlled by the anti roll bar because the control arm has only one anchor. And since the steering's mounted on the inner wings (at least for the steering box type) and the stresses from the struts go through the strut tops and into the inner wings, that means all the nice, thick metal in the frame head is doing is acting as a fulcrum for the suspension, and won't be under any significant stress unless you corner at speeds the rest of the bug can't cope with (!) or hit a kerb.
Which means scarily, the super's ability to stay on the road is entirely reliant on the thin, rusty bits we pretty much all have to repair as a matter of course Does make you wonder how many bondo-filled Supers and Type 3s on the road in the 70s-80s were one good sneeze away from disaster... |
Really, the control arms have three anchor points. The inner on the framehead, the outer mounted to the spindle which mounts to the strut assembly, and the swaybar. The inner wings are actually the body of the car. Don't underestimate the strength of the framehead. It's made from thick metal like 1/4 inch. It's made not to twist and anchor the front of the car under stress loads.There's a lot of pieces that come together in the front end to make one strong structural component. They all seem to rust out together however.  I ended up replacing the front firewall, both front rocker channels, spare tire well, front apron, both front bumper mounting plates with the captive nuts, half of one of the strut towers, bottom of one of the A pillars, and other nightmarish rust holes I came across in the process. What's that saying, in for a penny, in for a pound? I did finally run out of metal to replace, and I started from the rear of the car!
_________________
scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| H2OSB wrote: |
| mj2k wrote: |
Which means scarily, the super's ability to stay on the road is entirely reliant on the thin, rusty bits we pretty much all have to repair as a matter of course Does make you wonder how many bondo-filled Supers and Type 3s on the road in the 70s-80s were one good sneeze away from disaster... |
What a realist. Now I'm depressed.
H2OSB |
But on the other hand, it does leave a lot of room for modifications - the Super is one of the rare cars which would actually benefit from a strut brace, another being our UK version of the MK1 'Stang, the Ford Capri. Most cars have the strut tops mounted right back at the firewall (which acts as a built-in strut brace) so the strut brace is just for show, but on the Super (and Capri) it'd actually prevent some unwanted flexing in the strut tops.
Also, with that nice strong frame head underneath, it'd be a (relatively) simple job to weld on some extra mounts and fit wishbones from a later car (Mk1 Golf?) to stop the castor changing when the suspension compresses, which would make the front end much less wayward.
Of course, improving the handling on a Super is a bit of a moot point since all the weight's out the back, but it'd be an interesting exercise... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| beetlenut wrote: |
Really, the control arms have three anchor points. The inner on the framehead, the outer mounted to the spindle which mounts to the strut assembly, and the swaybar. The inner wings are actually the body of the car. Don't underestimate the strength of the framehead. It's made from thick metal like 1/4 inch. It's made not to twist and anchor the front of the car under stress loads.There's a lot of pieces that come together in the front end to make one strong structural component. They all seem to rust out together however. I ended up replacing the front firewall, both front rocker channels, spare tire well, front apron, both front bumper mounting plates with the captive nuts, half of one of the strut towers, bottom of one of the A pillars, and other nightmarish rust holes I came across in the process. What's that saying, in for a penny, in for a pound? I did finally run out of metal to replace, and I started from the rear of the car! |
I'm in pretty much the same situation (I've just reached the rear edge of the doors) but at least my frame head appears strong from underneath. However that's been welded to the body too, so there may be all sorts of horrors on the topside which I haven't found yet.
Thing which struck me is the main area of the frame head could take a lot more stress (it's under almost no load) but beside the strut tops, those anti roll bar mounts at the front, held on with 4x tiny bolts, are under a lot of stress in cornering or when you hit a bump. And they're perfectly placed to catch all the muck thrown up from the road onto the front of the car, so I'm glad new brackets are easy to come by |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dodgy
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 517
Location: Leicester, UK
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
When tackiling the front bulkhead / firewall and napoleons hat on a Super, be prepared for a bit of an adventure!
There are loads of photos & description in my build thread, link below.
The pattern parts sold for Supers are really just a modified Standard part, these do not include the correct shape inner panel, so do not provide the locating faces to mount the tunnel bracket or the footrest panels for driver / passenger side.
A correctly shaped panel is available from Memminger, but it is expensive!
https://www.feine-cabrios.de/produktion/karosserie-blechteile/#querwand_1302_1303
Good news for you (and me) is that this panel is the same for LHD & RHD.
The most thorough approach is to split the panel and use a combination of the good upper inner section and pattern panel lower sections to make one good assembly - this requires a lot of cutting & sectioning as the depth of the panel is different to Standard too.
You will likely also need replacement inner reinforcement boxes, these are missing from the pattern panel, included in the Memminger panel, or available separately here:
https://www.superbeetlesolutions.com/shop/p/gapn7z01r1jl3yire4q0tj42ctz9ih
If you want to make your own I shared a 2D drawing of the cutout required to form them, see here:
[url]https://1drv.ms/b/s!AnyXCFmfDsVqhwujk7jB2nOaDXxE?e=xqWXjW[/url]
The reinforcement brackets on the outside are probably hiding corrosion and will need removing to do the bulkhead repair properly, this is a bit of a nightmare of a job. They are heavy steel but can still rust through and require local repair. No replacement parts are available for these, as far as I know.
The main difference with Supers and Standard is not really the suspension loads (although of course the Supers struts are mounted to the body) but the steering loads - the steering assembly is mounted on the body close to the bulkhead. All the steering loads pass through the bulkhead area to the floorpan. For this reason it is important that any repair includes all the correct reinforcements and is at least as solid as the original factory build.
If I was to do this again I think I would try making repairs while the bulkhead panel was still fitted in the body. Removing it wholesale is possible, and makes the reconstruction of the panel much easier, but getting it out is a real pain.
The napoleon hat is easier, but there are (predictably) issues with fit of the pattern panel for both the upper and lower sections - see my build thread for photos and comments on these too.
Good luck!
_________________
'75 1303 (current project) owned since 1989!
'72 Squareback - full resto completed 2008 - now sold
356 Speedster kit, completed 2005 - now sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Super vs Standard Bug Napoleon's Hat |
|
|
| Dodgy wrote: |
When tackiling the front bulkhead / firewall and napoleons hat on a Super, be prepared for a bit of an adventure!
There are loads of photos & description in my build thread, link below.
...
Good luck! |
Thanks, there's some really high quality welding in your thread, puts my efforts to shame
Luckily I managed to get hold of another firewall type via coolairvw - thicker metal than Klokkerholm and it's got the internal brackets already present. No idea what the make is or if they'll have them going forward (they're in the sale, and doesn't look like they'll be replaced) but I'm quite happy with the quality. Though I might change my mind once I start to hack into the firewall.
Also managed to pick up a right hand repair section from coolairvw for the Napoleons hat - it's lovely thick metal so hopefully that'll sort out the issues there, as long as there's enough left of the rest of the hat to make it strong. Sadly they don't have a left hand section (missed that one in the sale) and doesn't look like they're getting any more so I'll have to look elsewhere for that side. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
