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Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Jimbo, I feel confident about finding TDC. Neither valve moves when rotating the engine, rotor is pointing at 4 o'clock, the spark plug wire at 4 oclock goes to #1, and the pulley is original to the engine (I'm the second owner). I removed all the plugs and cleaned out the galleys - documented with pictures on my 71 build thread. I do want to examine those lifters.
But first, raydog, here is what the sump looks like after draining the oil. Note, this is the first oil change after the rebuild. So far I've run it for 20 minutes at 2000 rpm to distribute the oil but I haven't had it on the road yet to set the rings. Definitely sone metal in that oil. Normal during break in?
_________________ '91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight= |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9967 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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What does the oil look like?
That is a lot of material! Looks like a bearing or…? 20 minutes? _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5292 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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That looks like Cam & lifter damage What oil u running? _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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See if the slurry sticks to a magnet. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
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Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9772 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Tom,
That is wayyy too much sludge for a freshly broke in engine.
The breakin waste oil usually has some shimmer in the pan. But the sump plate would be fairly clean.
To me it looks like bearing material. But then, it could be the lighting in the pic above.
As stated earlier. Get a strong magnet and see if the sludge sticks to it.
If it does stick, your cam or followers are wearing.
It the material does not stick, it's bearing material.
Either way. be prepared for a tear down to see what's going on in the case. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Oh that's doesn't look good at all. |
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4421 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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raydog wrote: |
Tom K. wrote: |
So maybe I have a new problem, any thoughts on why all 8 valve lashes would increase after just 10 minutes of idling? This is a new build - new cam, new followers, new stems, new exhaust valves. I feel like I'm missing something easy. Thanks if you have any thoughts. |
Have you bothered to check the oil yet? Sounds like you have a cam going flat and/or lifter faces getting chewed up. Drain the oil, remove sump plate and take a pic of what you see. You shouldn't be prolonging the idle on a fresh build. |
I'm thinking this as well. Was the engine broken in according to the procedure to harden the surface of the cam lobes and lifters?
If it was me I'd break it down just to be comfortable of what's going on in the bottom end so as to avoid the loss of the engine if an apocalypse is underway down there. Contain the damage at this point and begin again.
Edit. I guess I missed the second page before I replied. Stop now. It's the apocalypse. Split it open, clean and assess everything as if it was an unknown badly worn engine and start again based on a new unbiased assessment of every part and bearing surface.
Been there brother. Feeling the frustration with you for sure. _________________ 1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
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69aircooled Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2004 Posts: 241 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Reading through this thread it seems that the best route would be to pull your engine and open it back up to determine a root cause. I would guess, like others here, is that your cam is not happy with the lifters therefore contaminating the oil. I could be wrong, but the bent push rods and excessive backlash in the valve train seems to point to this scenario.
Upon rebuild I would suggest using a high zinc oil, Brad Penn, or run a zinc additive with your regular motor oil on break-in. Though not necessary another item to consider might be an oil pump with a spin-on filter. |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4026 Location: WA
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Before you yank the motor check the side clearance of the rocker assembly since you added springs to replace dead ones and see how the rocker pad's are hitting the valve stims, slightly off center as the valves must spin. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9967 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Starbucket wrote: |
Before you yank the motor check the side clearance of the rocker assembly since you added springs to replace dead ones and see how the rocker pad's are hitting the valve stims, slightly off center as the valves must spin. |
This is not a dig. I really am just curious in your thinking. At this point, with the sump open and with the large deposit of finely ground metal, it seems odd to keep looking at the contact surface pattern, since a new motor will need to be built.
But agree, the rockers need to hit off center so the valves spins during the run cycle. Plus they need to swipe the tip. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9772 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:18 am Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Tom K. wrote: |
Engine tear down will happen Tuesday. I will post pictures of what I find. Thinking ahead. If the cam-to-lifter surface is not getting oil, is there a specific galley that could be clogged? How does oil get delivered to those surfaces? |
Splash from the crankshaft.
On the rebuild. Use a good lube for the camshaft and lifter faces.
This is what I use,
https://goodson.com/products/cam-shield-premium-assembly-lube
Use a good breakin oil too. Brad Penn breaking oil is a good selection,
https://www.yotashop.com/brad-penn-30w-break-in-oi...-dEALw_wcB
Or,
https://fab9tuning.com/joe-gibbs-driven-br-break-i...WfEALw_wcB
Using cheap oil, because your gonna drain it immediately after breakin. Is not recommended.
Yeah, you're gonna toss it out right after the first 20 minutes of life.
But the protection the breakin oil offers is cheap compared to..... Well, what you are about to go through to get the engine back to running condition. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1475 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:03 am Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Double check TDC for sure. But it also sounds like it could be a sticking valve...or lifter. Who did the rebuild? Tight lifters are a great way to cause a cam to crap the bed |
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Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:20 am Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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rustavenger wrote: |
Use a good lube for the camshaft and lifter faces. |
Thanks for the tip. I won't be messing around this time.
MuzzcoVW wrote: |
Tight lifters are a great way to cause a cam to crap the bed |
I recall during the build not being too happy with the lifter fitment. A few seemed a little tight. I measured everything related to the rods and pistons. Is there a spec measurement step for lifter fitment that I missed? I'll be checking that for sure.
Although no more need to speculate. We'll all know tomorrow. _________________ '91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight= |
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raydog Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1163 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:42 am Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Did you pull the strainer out and take a look too? Not see you mention that. _________________ Come on, It's not rocket science. KISS |
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Rickf1985 Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2022 Posts: 285 Location: NJ
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:24 am Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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I saw mention of valve guide replacement but no mention of reaming or check of the valve to guide clearance. Once hot the valves could be bound up and jamming the pushrods and the entire valvetrain into the cam. So, once it is apart be SURE to look at the valve guides while you have it apart. |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1475 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:44 am Post subject: Re: *TWO* Bent Push Rods on Recent Rebuild |
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Rickf1985 wrote: |
I saw mention of valve guide replacement but no mention of reaming or check of the valve to guide clearance. Once hot the valves could be bound up and jamming the pushrods and the entire valvetrain into the cam. So, once it is apart be SURE to look at the valve guides while you have it apart. |
X2 totally agree |
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Tom K. Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005 Posts: 1606 Location: Central Pennsylvania
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