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Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis?
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halbug
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis? Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

Plan to assemble a 1965 Type 15 Karmann Ghia Convertible body to an NOS Type 181 (Kübel or Thing) IRS floor pan manufactured in Mexico. I know I will have to modify the body at the rear body mounts that bolt to the chassis shock mounts. Other than that, will it fit?

Has somebody tried this before or can tell me for certain if it will fit? Vehicle ID is no issue as the pan is NOS w/o a number yet.

Thanks for your tips and answers!


Last edited by halbug on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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oorwullie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dunno if it'll fit but i'd be interested to hear how you plan on registering it germany.

are you going to stamp the original 65 vert chassis number on to the new mex chassis?

gruss.
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berliner
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: pan Reply with quote

I believe the Thing uses the same size pan as the Ghia,but the rear body mounts may be different,due to the different years.(cut and weld)Also the Thing front end should be balljoint,while the '65 would have a link pin beam,so a new front beam would be required.I'm putting a '64 Ghia on a'72 pan so I have to use the later suspension(which is why I did it in the first place) including the IRS rear end.If the thing pan is set up for IRS,you would need IRS trans,axles and trailing/diagonal arms,to take advantage of the improved handling,OR I think you can use the swingaxle rear end from the '65.Do lots of research in the Search thingy before you start.
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halbug
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: pan Reply with quote

berliner wrote:
I believe the Thing uses the same size pan as the Ghia,but the rear body mounts may be different,due to the different years.(cut and weld)Also the Thing front end should be balljoint,while the '65 would have a link pin beam,so a new front beam would be required.I'm putting a '64 Ghia on a'72 pan so I have to use the later suspension(which is why I did it in the first place) including the IRS rear end.If the thing pan is set up for IRS,you would need IRS trans,axles and trailing/diagonal arms,to take advantage of the improved handling,OR I think you can use the swingaxle rear end from the '65.Do lots of research in the Search thingy before you start.


Hi Berliner,
Yes - the adds for floor halfes always talk about usage for Karmann Ghia and Thing. I just thought somebody may have done it and could confirm the set-up. The IRS rear and balljoint front suspension are the reason for swapping pans.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: pan Reply with quote

halbug wrote:
berliner wrote:
I believe the Thing uses the same size pan as the Ghia,but the rear body mounts may be different,due to the different years.(cut and weld)Also the Thing front end should be balljoint,while the '65 would have a link pin beam,so a new front beam would be required.I'm putting a '64 Ghia on a'72 pan so I have to use the later suspension(which is why I did it in the first place) including the IRS rear end.If the thing pan is set up for IRS,you would need IRS trans,axles and trailing/diagonal arms,to take advantage of the improved handling,OR I think you can use the swingaxle rear end from the '65.Do lots of research in the Search thingy before you start.


Hi Berliner,
Yes - the adds for floor halfes always talk about usage for Karmann Ghia and Thing. I just thought somebody may have done it and could confirm the set-up. The IRS rear and balljoint front suspension are the reason for swapping pans.


I've put Ghia floor pan halfs into a thing before. Yes, the jack mounts had to be removed, but that was it. You might want to do a test fit before you get too far, but it should fit.
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halbug
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: pan Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
halbug wrote:
berliner wrote:
I believe the Thing uses the same size pan as the Ghia,but the rear body mounts may be different,due to the different years.(cut and weld)Also the Thing front end should be balljoint,while the '65 would have a link pin beam,so a new front beam would be required.I'm putting a '64 Ghia on a'72 pan so I have to use the later suspension(which is why I did it in the first place) including the IRS rear end.If the thing pan is set up for IRS,you would need IRS trans,axles and trailing/diagonal arms,to take advantage of the improved handling,OR I think you can use the swingaxle rear end from the '65.Do lots of research in the Search thingy before you start.


Hi Berliner,
Yes - the adds for floor halfes always talk about usage for Karmann Ghia and Thing. I just thought somebody may have done it and could confirm the set-up. The IRS rear and balljoint front suspension are the reason for swapping pans.


I've put Ghia floor pan halfs into a thing before. Yes, the jack mounts had to be removed, but that was it. You might want to do a test fit before you get too far, but it should fit.


I knew somebody here must have done it before Dancing - Thanks!

My main concern where the pan halfs, the rest of the chassis seems to be alike anyhow! Good hint with the jack mounts, compared mine and they seem to be identical. Either way they will not stop me.
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myb356
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it fits, for sure. If you want heat, you will need to run tubes for the cables. The only other slight mod to do is seal up the roll bar holes. Search my gallery for a Ghia on a Thing chassis.
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halbug
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

myb356 wrote:
Yes, it fits, for sure. If you want heat, you will need to run tubes for the cables. The only other slight mod to do is seal up the roll bar holes. Search my gallery for a Ghia on a Thing chassis.


More good news! Thank you Very Happy Nice Ghia you have there!

My chassis has heater cable tubes installed already. Seat rails will have to go. Does anyone know what the tube is for, that exits on the tunnel half way between shifter and Napoleon hat?

Other differences I noted, are reinforcement plates at the underside, just where the Napoleon hat runs out, a reinforcement bar under the rear torsion tube and battery holder. Drain holes are usually also not needed in a Ghia (let's hope!) Laughing

Here is a picture of it:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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myb356
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I noticed... or perhaps imagined is that the rear suspension seemed to have an awful lot of down travel. Wondering if there could be a variation in the casting where the springplate goes that affects and limits up and down travel. That stiffener under the rear torsion makes a 901 5-speed swap a total pain.
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halbug
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myb356 wrote:
One thing I noticed... or perhaps imagined is that the rear suspension seemed to have an awful lot of down travel. Wondering if there could be a variation in the casting where the springplate goes that affects and limits up and down travel. That stiffener under the rear torsion makes a 901 5-speed swap a total pain.


Interesting, I compared mine with a 68 IRS bug pan and the castings seem to be identical. The bar under the rear torsion bar may create myself some headache for installing Berg5 and a rear sway bar. But we will see, once I get there. Can't wait to get started Twisted Evil

All - Thanks for confirming my plans Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Does anyone know what the tube is for, that exits on the tunnel half way between shifter and Napoleon hat? "



looks like someone ran the fuel line on the inner side of the Nap hat. Normally the fuel line would enter the tunnel from in front of the Nap hat, directly under your fuel tank.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

c21darrel wrote:
"Does anyone know what the tube is for, that exits on the tunnel half way between shifter and Napoleon hat? "



looks like someone ran the fuel line on the inner side of the Nap hat. Normally the fuel line would enter the tunnel from in front of the Nap hat, directly under your fuel tank.


Thanks but: Nope - fuel line exits tunnel on the RH side on mine (difficult to see on photo). I need to run a wire through the tube in question, because I can not see where it exits again.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as for the tube in question......could it have been for a mechanically driven tachometer? or some other guage?
seems that position on the tunnel would work to mount auxilliary guage....
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis? Reply with quote

Ok, just for reference in case someone will look this up again. Thing chassis can be made to fit a Ghia body!

The casting of the rear shock arms are different and require some work:

Spring plate travel needs clearancing.
The inside of the upper body mount need quite a bit of grinding.
Lower body mount missing.0

Other than this no issues found. Details are in my build thread.
Cheers halbug
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis? Reply with quote

The tube that exits between the shifter and napolean hat is used to control the defrost flap on 1974 and later 181. Unlike other VWs, 181 engine heat ran through plastic pieces and cardboard type tubes along the center tunnel. The last plastic piece sits on top of that part of the tunnel and there is a flap that directs air to either the defrost vents or out near the pedals. The control is the regular heater controls next to the parking brake. Engine heat was only available 1974 and later 181, but not all 181 got it. German Bundeswehr 181 almost never got engine heat for some reason.

Interestingly, my 1975 model 110 'Basic Beetle' has the same little indentation in the tunnel. I haven't looked at it carefully to see if there is actually a tube in there.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:57 am    Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis? Reply with quote

SilverThing wrote:
The tube that exits between the shifter and napolean hat is used to control the defrost flap on 1974 and later 181. Unlike other VWs, 181 engine heat ran through plastic pieces and cardboard type tubes along the center tunnel. The last plastic piece sits on top of that part of the tunnel and there is a flap that directs air to either the defrost vents or out near the pedals. The control is the regular heater controls next to the parking brake. Engine heat was only available 1974 and later 181, but not all 181 got it. German Bundeswehr 181 almost never got engine heat for some reason.

Interestingly, my 1975 model 110 'Basic Beetle' has the same little indentation in the tunnel. I haven't looked at it carefully to see if there is actually a tube in there.


That is very interesting! Do you mean, the heated air in a T181 is not routed through body heater channels but rather through tubes on top of the tunnel? Never realized that! Do you have any pictures maybe?
Thank you
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis? Reply with quote

Below is a link to the 181 forum discussion on heating systems. We only got the 181 here in the US for two years (1973 and 1974) and the primary difference between the two years is the heating system. The reason I mention that is that the heater forum discussion I linked only talks about 73 and 74 heaters. Elsewhere in the world, the 73/74 heater distinction isn’t as clear cut. Prior to 1974, 181 came with a BN4 heater only (no engine heat) or could optionally come with no heater at all (fairly common in Mexico). In 1974, VW introduced engine heat for the 181. In the US, all 1974s have engine heat, but that isn’t the case in other markets. The Bundeswehr almost never bought 181 with engine heat so Germans tend to refer to the two heating systems (and also the exhaust systems) as ‘BW’ and ‘Zivil’ since engine heat was more common on civil service vehicles like fire fighters and civil defense. Other militaries did buy 181 with engine heat so that adds to confusion. 1974 and later 181 could have no heat, BN4 only, engine heat only, or engine heat plus BN4. That is probably more info than you wanted, but hopefully it helps clarify things some.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=332848
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Body on 181 Chassis? Reply with quote

No worries, this is very interesting! Thanks for all the details, very informative.
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