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Adriel Rowley
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Joined: October 12, 2006
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Location: Mesa, Arizona
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26320
Location: Douglas, WY
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 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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The body can be twisted and make it look like the tires are not centered in the fenderwells. But the wheel alignment is the key. Both wheels need to track straight ahead, with nearly no toe-in.
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Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26320
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
The body can be twisted, or aftermarket fenders, can make it look like the tires are not centered in the fenderwells. But the wheel alignment is the key. Both wheels need to track straight ahead, with nearly no toe-in.
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_________________
Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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61SNRF
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4657
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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As far as I know VW never defined or at least printed any specs for what you're asking.
If the chassis and body are square, ie never in a major collision, then any tolerance make up should be fully accounted for by the sloted holes in the spring plates.
What can you do at home? Measure the wheel base and compare side to side for a rough idea.
If it's far off have a modern laser wheel alignment done, I believe most Hunter equipment has the specs down to 1966 Beetle.
Tip: Remember, it's up to you to take the car in with the Camber adjustment within specs as adjusting the torsion bars is beyond most shop's scope.
If they can't adjust rear Toe-in to specs then go further into measuring and diagnosing such things as loose/worn/improperly installed trans mounts, bent frame horns etc.
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-Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Last edited by 61SNRF on Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
The body can be twisted and make it look like the tires are not centered in the fenderwells. But the wheel alignment is the key. Both wheels need to track straight ahead, with nearly no toe-in.
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Thank you for the help. 
I was in a hurry and see missed some information:
Wheels are not mounted since attaching the axles to the spring plates.
I already measured and found no differences in the body, however, did find when installed the axles, installed the passenger about 0,75cm further forward.
All this because there is too much length of emergency brake cable in the drum, especially the passenger side. Moving the axle aft would increase the distance the cables are traversing.
I am appreciative as had not crossed my mind this is alignment.
Curious, what happen if the rear wheels were toe-out? (Front of the tire further out than the rear of the tire.)
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation
Last edited by Adriel Rowley on Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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| 61SNRF wrote: |
| As far as I know VW never defined or at least printed any specs for what you're asking. |
Then my thinking has been if no specification, then one should not be concerned about damage, so long as the axles are reasonably positioned (ex. the aft bolts barely in the spring plates).
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| If the chassis and body are square, ie never in a major collision, then any tolerance make up should be fully accounted for by the sloted holes in the spring plates. |
I don't know if major, it spit the driver seat inner seat rail.
I did take measurements in several places in the rear and find no differences.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| What can you do at home? Measure the wheel base and compare side to side for a rough idea. |
The Idiot's Guide has instructions for doing an alignment at home.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| If it's far off have a modern laser wheel alignment done, I believe most Hunter equipment has the specs down to 1966 Beetle. |
Is the laser alignment a noticeable improvement over prior methods?
Appreciate confirming shops do not have the specifications for king pin front suspension.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Tip: Remember, it's up to you to take the car in with the Camber adjustment within specs as adjusting the torsion bars is beyond most shop's scope. |
I was not aware camber was adjusted by the spring plates, will have to look into that.
By the way, I prefer to do any work possible, vast majority of shops can't be trusted and most are operated with the intent of making money rather than doing half decent work.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| If they can't adjust rear Toe-in to specs then go further into measuring and diagnosing such things as loose/worn/improperly installed trans mounts, bent frame horns etc. |
Transmission mounts are new. How could someone install them incorrectly?
Did not consider bent horns, have my doubts that be the case, though best to check.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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RWK
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1349
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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Camber is adjusted by the relationship of spring plate on the torsion bar, ((splines), unloaded angle of the spring plate in relation to the car being level.
Front trans mount must be tightened first, then rear mounts.
This is a bus, but principle is the same.
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73 Type 181
63 Type 113
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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| RWK wrote: |
Camber is adjusted by the relationship of spring plate on the torsion bar, ((splines), unloaded angle of the spring plate in relation to the car being level.
Front trans mount must be tightened first, then rear mounts.
This is a bus, but principle is the same.
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Thank you for the assistance, it is appreciated.
I did look into it and then remembered after reading, on swing axle the camber is affected by ride height, unlike the IRS I rebuilt. What I did not find was if camber was checked unsprung, now had some sleep, it is a duh. 
I think did the front first, though so much happened since then, will just un-do and re-do so know it is right.
I would replace the bushings, however, is such an ordeal (and have no clamps) I been ignoring the ones on Ruby... If I have to adjust the ride height/camber, certainly going to replace them. Maybe someone has the factory tool I can rent.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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61SNRF
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009
Posts: 4657
Location: Whittier 90602
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Volkswagen mechanic friend seems to think if the axles are too far back, cause damage.... |
The damage that could occur would be poor tire wear and possibly unstable handling charactoristics.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....I already measured and found no differences in the body, however, did find when installed the axles, installed the passenger about 0,75cm further forward.... |
I'm not talking about a few simple measurements with a tape measure. Watch a car accident in slow motion and you'll see that the shock waves travel through the entire body/chassis. It takes very specialized equipment to measure the body/frame for squareness and identify areas that are bent.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....All this because there is too much length of emergency brake cable in the drum, especially the passenger side. Moving the axle aft would increase the distance the cables are traversing.... |
Moving the axle fore or aft will not effect how much the E Brake cable extends into the drum, that is a product of cable adjustment at the handle end.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Curious, what happen if the rear wheels were toe-out? (Front of the tire further out than the rear of the tire.) |
Some Toe-out is okay but if excessive then expect excessive inner tread wear on the rear tires and possibly poor handling.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Is the laser alignment a noticeable improvement over prior methods?... |
Computorized laser alignment racks will determine the imaginary "Thrust Line" or centerline of the chassis/wheels/axles and any measurements and adjustments of front or rear Toe-in/Toe-out are made off of that.
Finding this reference line by the analog method outlined in the Bentely manual would be very challanging and no doubt far less accurate.
BTW, do you have the Bentely manual for your car?
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Appreciate confirming shops do not have the specifications for king pin front suspension.... |
All I mean is that the specs for '66-> are typically pre-loaded into their machines. The technician can still input the specs manually and perform an accurate alignment.
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Transmission mounts are new. How could someone install them incorrectly?.... |
The mounting holes for the rear trans mounts are sloted where they bolt to the saddle, if those are not tightened last it can put extra stress on the rubber and could potentialy cause minor misalignment of the trans to frame.
_________________
-Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Rear axle specification, please. |
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| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Volkswagen mechanic friend seems to think if the axles are too far back, cause damage.... |
The damage that could occur would be poor tire wear and possibly unstable handling charactoristics. |
Ah, I was understanding he was considering the transaxle.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....I already measured and found no differences in the body, however, did find when installed the axles, installed the passenger about 0,75cm further forward.... |
I'm not talking about a few simple measurements with a tape measure. Watch a car accident in slow motion and you'll see that the shock waves travel through the entire body/chassis. It takes very specialized equipment to measure the body/frame for squareness and identify areas that are bent. |
I know. Just looking for the obvious. In fact, an example is the illegal Mexican who hit Ruby in the front driver corner, tweaked the whole nose so the hood will not shut. Too bad not repairable, per what I have been told. Not liking having to twist the hood to get it to latch.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....All this because there is too much length of emergency brake cable in the drum, especially the passenger side. Moving the axle aft would increase the distance the cables are traversing.... |
Moving the axle fore or aft will not effect how much the E Brake cable extends into the drum, that is a product of cable adjustment at the handle end. |
Well then how does one shorten the cable when the nut is turned all the way down and the drum is still totally loose?
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Curious, what happen if the rear wheels were toe-out? (Front of the tire further out than the rear of the tire.) |
Some Toe-out is okay but if excessive then expect excessive inner tread wear on the rear tires and possibly poor handling. |
Exactly.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Is the laser alignment a noticeable improvement over prior methods?... |
Computorized laser alignment racks will determine the imaginary "Thrust Line" or centerline of the chassis/wheels/axles and any measurements and adjustments of front or rear Toe-in/Toe-out are made off of that.
Finding this reference line by the analog method outlined in the Bentely manual would be very challanging and no doubt far less accurate. |
Neat! Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| BTW, do you have the Bentely manual for your car? |
I have not been able to afford it, have John's book and a Haynes. Not even found an affordable used copy.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Appreciate confirming shops do not have the specifications for king pin front suspension.... |
All I mean is that the specs for '66-> are typically pre-loaded into their machines. The technician can still input the specs manually and perform an accurate alignment. |
When I go for an alignment, know to always bring the specifications.
| 61SNRF wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| ....Transmission mounts are new. How could someone install them incorrectly?.... |
The mounting holes for the rear trans mounts are sloted where they bolt to the saddle, if those are not tightened last it can put extra stress on the rubber and could potentialy cause minor misalignment of the trans to frame. |
Okay.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
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