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Meet the Bergmann Bomb!
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Quote:
As i look more closely at that damn center main bearing,
It takes a smidge more than 25 ft. lbs. to close up -all- of the light between center main saddles.

I think you are confusing some things. Making sure the case halves come together is done WITHOUT the bearing in it.
If the case halves come together with a steel center bearing.....you have not enough crush, and it will probably not work.

The steel shell bearing is .002 thicker in the center than at the ends, it is that way because it is supposed to hold the case haves apart .004 at room temp. If the ID of the bearing is measuring BIGGER in the side to side direction you can sand the parting surfaces of the bearing until the ID is round, but that's it, do not go farther.

If you are using the KS aluminum center main bearing then the situation may be different. If unsure check with magnet, but I can tell them apart real easy because steel is much heavier.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

modok wrote:


If the case halves come together with a steel center bearing.....you have not enough crush, and it will probably not work.

The steel shell bearing is that way because it is supposed to hold the case haves apart .004 at room temp.


Much thanks for your help my man.
I apparently have this thing way wrong.

This is indeed a steel backed (Silverline) center main.

My understanding is that there should not be a gap between the case halves, with the center main in place and the six main case bolts tight.

Since the oil groove is on the OD of these bearings,
How do you keep from losing oil pressure out of the gap between the case halves?

You're saying you need a .004 gap between the case halves with the bolts tight?
How do you measure this gap? Stick a feeler blade in there?


Went thru this with a friend lately.
His KS center mains didn't hold the case halves apart when the main studs were tight.

This is totally blowing my little mind here.
You're saying all steel backed center mains are designed to work this way?
I thought it was just crappy manufacture!
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

modok wrote:

The steel shell bearing is .002 thicker in the center than at the ends, it is that way because it is supposed to hold the case haves apart .004 at room temp.


Where's that "mind blowing" gif when you need it?

Is the idea that the gap between the case halves closes up when the case gets up to temp?
The mag case material grows, and the main bore opens up,
But the steel bearing doesn't.
Then the case bolts clamp down and close the gap at the parting line,
Keeping the bearing crushed in place despite the differences in metallurgy/expansion?

Think Think Think
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

The reason the non-steel-backed KS bearings fit without a gap is because they expand at a similar rate to the case?

Think Think Think
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modok
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:11 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

BINGO, you got it.
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nogoodwithusernames
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

That seems SO counter intuitive. Makes sense when you think of it that way but it feels so wrong Laughing
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71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

I know, right?

Keep thinking of the oil outside the bearing spraying everywhere through the gap between the case halves…
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nogoodwithusernames
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Well to be fair, on startup the oil will be cold and thick and you usually have high pressure anyways so bleeding some of that off as everything warms up might be a benefit? In a weird roundabout sort of way. Maybe I'm just trying to help ya feel better about it so we can watch this thing explode all the sooner Wink
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71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
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modok
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

.004x.3 gap......less than one lifter. Drip or perhaps a slow dribble.

But it is weird. I would not think it would even work, If I didn't already know it works.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Well, until i can rip it clear back down to a bare case and order some more bearings…

Figured it was a good use of an entire day to get the head studs and cylinder shims worked out.

Crazy what they did with those shims..!
They were only notched for 8mm studs, so just crammed on.
Plus some slipped and smashed down anyways, so chewed and burred.
Not to mention two .055”, one .065”, one .070”..
Took hours of clearancing and hammering and sanding to get them to fit.
All just to get a good mock-up and order some decent shims.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I’ll have some different shims on-hand for future mock-ups i guess. Rolling Eyes
Ordered shims for either 8:1 or 8.2:1 CR. Not sure how well I’ll do at tuning.

Also ran the studs clear home for length trimming.
Once there, they got blue lock-tite’ed into the inserts.
Also decided enough was enough struggling with the two top center studs.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Now that the studs are where they go,
If i can get the crank turning smoothly,
We can glue this thing together.

Until then,
The blue glue is drying,
And i can make vroom noises!
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Hah!
Weare at point.
Vroom noises!

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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Couple days off - driving around looking at colleges! Shocked

Did some cleanup while waiting on shims and an unmonkeyed set of main bearings to arrive.

Threw some stuff in the trash!! Dancing
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Drug the tin out of the attic for a checkout and mockup.
Tin is all China, Brazil alternator seems OK, and we got a welded fan here.
Oh,
But wait.
The fan nut is a bit loose.. Mad
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Can't catch a break on this POS..
Was thinking how the alternator had a cool dark tint to it,
But getting it apart,
er,
That's just grime.
It's the same as any other alternator, it's just that dirty.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Nice washer on the hold-down strap, eh?
Good way to cut a plug wire, or your hand, or..
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Pretty amazing how ALL of a motor can be shitty, eh?
You would think that some random parts-slapper-together clown would get it right at least occasionally.
Like, a coin can't land on tails every time, right?

Guess when someone does shitty work, they do shitty work;
They don't become a different person sometimes... Think

Tiger at A1 sure does nice work.
This header fits a treat! Cool
Too bad some dumbass got ahold of it.
Here's why there's a hole in the pipe.
Dumbass extended the wastegate flange wrong.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Same dumbass probably welded the T4 flange onto the T3 header here.
Notice no clearance/thought so bolts fit all crooked/caddy-wompus.
Might have to shave down bolt heads?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Started doing some Cardboard Aided Design.
Turbo seems so heavy to hang from just exhaust tubing.
Even though it survived like that before... Or did it..? Think
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Bus bar hanger bolts seem good for this...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Can't be flat, though; gonna have to put some cant into it.
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Also thinking about O2 sensor locations.
After the turbo on my dump pipe seems primed to get a bunch of fresh air contamination/lean readings.
But before the turbo is a no-no right?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What you guys think?
Should i build that hanger bracket?
Where to put an O2 sensor bung?
Question


Anyways,
Got my last batch of junk together to get tanked.
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Gotta be glad for any success we can get! Dancing
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madmike
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

O2 sensor goes after turbo Wink
That Dump pipe on the turbo drain, goes on the Waste Gate Laughing
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Dude I turn away from the Samba for what feels like a week (in reality two) come back from PRI and suddenly we have a long block. lol awesome read , great progress bro!
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

VWporscheGT3 wrote:
suddenly we have a long mock!


FIFY. Laughing

It is close now though..
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
VWporscheGT3 wrote:
suddenly we have a long mock!


FIFY. Laughing

It is close now though..
Embarassed thanks for the correction lol
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Unfuckerizing the exhaust...
Got wastegate setup so it won't bang itself a big hole in the pipe anymore. Rolling Eyes

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


T4 flange was a bit narrow.
Not enough meat to open clear up to size,
But at least i got a bunch of big blobby weld out of the way.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Checking out this other site,
I thought,
"Hey, i have one JUST like that!" Laughing Laughing Laughing
https://ace-engines.com/product/aircooled-vw-2387cc-turbo-engine/

Looks like they are OK with an O2 sensor in the base of a short dump pipe.
But what is the bung in the collector flange there for?
EGT?
Think

CE heads have few fins just like my SE.
Maybe with the right tune they can live on the street after all. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Hi
Did you get case tight together or did you have the play between?
Better with new bearings ?

//Jan



[ quote="Clatter"]Well, until i can rip it clear back down to a bare case and order some more bearings…

Figured it was a good use of an entire day to get the head studs and cylinder shims worked out.

Crazy what they did with those shims..!
They were only notched for 8mm studs, so just crammed on.
Plus some slipped and smashed down anyways, so chewed and burred.
Not to mention two .055”, one .065”, one .070”..
Took hours of clearancing and hammering and sanding to get them to fit.
All just to get a good mock-up and order some decent shims.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I’ll have some different shims on-hand for future mock-ups i guess. Rolling Eyes
Ordered shims for either 8:1 or 8.2:1 CR. Not sure how well I’ll do at tuning.

Also ran the studs clear home for length trimming.
Once there, they got blue lock-tite’ed into the inserts.
Also decided enough was enough struggling with the two top center studs.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Now that the studs are where they go,
If i can get the crank turning smoothly,
We can glue this thing together.

Until then,
The blue glue is drying,
And i can make vroom noises!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/quote]
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

Quote:
Looks like they are OK with an O2 sensor in the base of a short dump pipe.
But what is the bung in the collector flange there for?
EGT?
Think

That collector bung, looks like a standard collector bung for a N/A engine.
Most likely something that Tigar has on a shelf and uses on most of his headers.

My dump pipe has two O2 sensor bungs welded in it. One close the turbo housing.
And the other about 4" further way. In a straight section of the dump pipe.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Before anyone comments on the waste gate setup. It's not anywhere correct.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
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madmike
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Meet the Bergmann Bomb! Reply with quote

I dout the xpurts could see it Rolling Eyes Laughing
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Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works"
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