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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:44 pm Post subject: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Hi All,
Of course this happens when I am travelling 
I have a fairly fresh rebuild (~15000 miles) with 4 oil changes to date, last one was about 6500 miles ago with Swepco 202. Filled to about 5mm from leaking out the fill hole.
I am getting a fairly loud whine in 2nd gear, it seems louder when I go downhill but not really certain about that. Goes away when clutch is pressed in. Louder when I coast with clutch engaged
1st has no whine
2nd has loud whine
3rd has whine but quieter
4th unknown, road and engine too loud
I am currently in Sedona, AZ but heading to Palm Springs next week and then into Baja. I'd like someone with more experience than me to listen to the noise or give me advice.
Any ideas on what this can be or where to go for a better read on this? I know its not good, but I need to know how bad or whether I have a failed rebuild.
Thanks,
Gregor
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca
Last edited by gbrandt on Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16504
Location: Brookeville, MD
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Have you contacted the rebuilder? They may know and trust someone in your area to look at it. |
Sure have! They are helpful and I am hopeful, but the more info I can get, the better!
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Pushing the clutch in isolates the engine from the transmission. Instead of pushing the clutch in, at speed put the van in neutral foot off the gas pedal and listen for any noises.
From my living room, if the noise is only in second, accel and decel, I’d suspect that gear set has wear. The problem is, second gear set has the fixed gear machined into the input shaft. Those are generally reused on a rebuild. 3rd gear set is 2 independent gears. You can’t hear 4th you say.
My 4th gear made noise for a long time and never failed. So assuming your mainshaft is not shifting in the case, a whine from second gear is probably ok because how much time do you spend in 2nd? Once you upshift the 2nd gear set is still meshed, but idling. With the load off that’s what is quieting it some. You could still be hearing 2nd when you are in 3rd but it would be quieter than when it’s selected.
I'm afraid it’s internal and will need to come out and apart at some point. You are probably ok to finish this trip. Even if second sheared, other than the debris, the other gear sets should get you home. A change of fluid now would be prudent to see what’s in there. Wish I had better news. Remember these hard parts are 40 years old in some cases. GT is making new input shafts, which would be the only way I know to ensure you have all new gear sets on a rebuild. Sorry I can’t be more positive.
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
Pushing the clutch in isolates the engine from the transmission. Instead of pushing the clutch in, at speed put the van in neutral foot off the gas pedal and listen for any noises.
From my living room, if the noise is only in second, accel and decel, I’d suspect that gear set has wear. The problem is, second gear set has the fixed gear machined into the input shaft. Those are generally reused on a rebuild. 3rd gear set is 2 independent gears. You can’t hear 4th you say.
My 4th gear made noise for a long time and never failed. So assuming your mainshaft is not shifting in the case, a whine from second gear is probably ok because how much time do you spend in 2nd? Once you upshift the 2nd gear set is still meshed, but idling. With the load off that’s what is quieting it some. You could still be hearing 2nd when you are in 3rd but it would be quieter than when it’s selected.
I'm afraid it’s internal and will need to come out and apart at some point. You are probably ok to finish this trip. Even if second sheared, other than the debris, the other gear sets should get you home. A change of fluid now would be prudent to see what’s in there. Wish I had better news. Remember these hard parts are 40 years old in some cases. GT is making new input shafts, which would be the only way I know to ensure you have all new gear sets on a rebuild. Sorry I can’t be more positive. |
Ok, I will try neutral and see if the noise goes or stays. I spend a fair amount of time in second because I have a taller third, but I still think I could make it home, worst case.
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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I have a stock 1,2,and 3rd mated to my TDI. With the 4.13 ring and pinion, 3rd gear is perfect for all driving, from surface streets, big grades, pretty much anywhere up to 50 mph. I have a slightly taller 4th. .82. I use it at highway speeds above 50. I don’t even notice the rpm gap shifting from 3rd to 4th.
Didn’t catch if you had a syncro. If so that limits your ring and pinion options. I’ve never been to Baja or Mexico, but I wouldn’t think heading down there with a noisy gear box is not a good idea.
Last time my trans was apart during the end of the pandemic almost 6 months getting parts.
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Not a syncro. Will ensure I get a professional look at the transaxle before heading south.
Gregor
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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mikemtnbike
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Thanks. I did contact them and they have 3 months lead time right now. No luck there.
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Sorry I don’t see a quick solution for you. Like I said our van was down about a half year with me doing the work. Problem was getting parts. I’ve been watching for a rebuildable 4 speed that I can have on hand just so the van is not tied up. They are rare as hen’s teeth. One crated and ready to be shipped if needed. As far as noise, I hear everything. It’s enough to put me in the nut house. Makes it difficult to relax. Good luck. Hopefully I’m completely wrong.
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DanHoug
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Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4791
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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you can always put a cup of sawdust in thru the fill hole to quiet it down....
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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| Quote: |
| I know its not good, but I need to know how bad or whether I have a failed rebuild. |
A 15,000 mile rebuild should have a pretty clean magnet especially if the oil has been changed 4 times.
If the magnet is clean, I'd tend to suggest you probably can keep driving a bit, maybe to the next expert, so there is a good reason to look at it.
You can get good info form this (simple?) task.
If you're up for it...
Best to get the opinion of someone who knows, to listen!
There are some sounds that scream "STOP" regardless of what's on the magnet.
That person you choose.... should be very interested in pics of the drain magnet though.
If not, well that tells you something too.
Unless the sound is horrendous then it doesn't matter. but it's still interesting..
There HAS to be a savvy Vanagon person in Sedona or nearby.
How about MrGas in Ft Collins Colorado? mrgasrebuilds.com
Can you record the sound on your phone and publish a video on Youtube?
Obviously the noise is increasing, right? That does NOT bode well with crossing into Mexico at all.
=====================
This pic is rather extreme, (like 33 inches higher) because I didn't "know".
But of course it didn't spill a drop.
Here's another info-pic.
I did this after returning home to get a "real minimum" - 21 inches and 13°.
A 2WD will be 'similar'. Maybe go 22 inches high (remember to take into account suspension droop if it's a factor)
But when you tip it up like that, the oil doesn't come out very fast, you can poke a rag in the hole.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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I was thinking a little more. I spend little time in first and second. Perhaps because you were using second a lot, it was seeing loads it was never intended to see for extended periods. 1 and 2 gear sets are not similar in diameter to 3 and 4 gear sets. So fixed second is seeing probably double the rpm’s as 2nd idler. Not good for cooling. If you go back, I definitely recommend a stock 3rd you can use.
Here is my noisy 4th.
You can see the pitting. Even with that wear, it did not physically fail.
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dobryan
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Matt Steedle is rebuilding my syncro transmission. Second gear is part of the main shaft. On mine second was worn through the hardened surface and shedding metal. We had to replace the main shaft . Matt said that many customers opt not to replace the main shaft due to cost ($1700 in a syncro) but that leaves second gear vulnerable to an early death. YMMV.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
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gbrandt
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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I'm changing the oil tomorrow, so we'll see what the magnet looks like. I can try to record the sound, but that rarely works.
I am off to Palm Springs next week and there is a place there that seems to know what they are doing: Eddies Auto Repair. We'll see what they say.
I'll stay out of second gear as much as I can.
Thanks for the help
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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Howesight
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Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
I was thinking a little more. I spend little time in first and second. Perhaps because you were using second a lot, it was seeing loads it was never intended to see for extended periods. 1 and 2 gear sets are not similar in diameter to 3 and 4 gear sets. So fixed second is seeing probably double the rpm’s as 2nd idler. Not good for cooling. If you go back, I definitely recommend a stock 3rd you can use.
Here is my noisy 4th.
You can see the pitting. Even with that wear, it did not physically fail. |
Hi Mark:
That 4th gear pitting looks like the pitting I saw on my Audi 01E first gear after it made noise for over 50,000 km of driving. This was a 400 HP modified AAN engine powering it. I don't recommend to anyone that they abuse an expensive transaxle in that way (driving while making gear noise). The Audi 01E is comparatively cheap to buy. I only removed that transaxle to install a 6th gear set, but ended up rebuilding it. (No special $yncro trans tools required!)
My experience, (and yours with that 4th gear) show that in some instances, the noisy box will survive longer that you might expect. A swarf check would be useful for the OP to see if driving home is possible.
FWIW, my syncro transaxle has always whined in 2nd gear, right from the time in 2012 when Darryl Christiansen rebuilt it. We'll see on the next rebuild what cause$ the noise. I have never used all the power the SVX engine can put out in this engine swap. I can't say for certain that Mrs. Howesight has been so conservative with the throttle. With some exceptions, I drive it like it's got glass gears.
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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gears
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Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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2nd gear is often whiney in these transaxles. My OE 2nd gear exhibited very poor mesh upon inspection, meaning the gear pair were not a perfect match ... even though assembled by factory technicians. IMO, this is a relatively common production issue.
Here you can see that only 30% of the tooth flank was in contact.
On our own GT mainshafts, we use an F1 racing tooth profile on 2nd gear, which creates its own perceptible whine (due to the 25* F1 pressure angle).
1st & 2nd gear whine is rather common, so not a worry for me personally.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
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gbrandt
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Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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Ok! Did the oil change today. The magnet was fine, just a small amount of fur, no chunks. The Swepco 202 came out fast, it seemed thin for a 75W90. There was minimal sparkles in the Swepco.
Replaced with 80W90, noise is almost imperceptible in 3rd and seems a bit quieter in 2nd.
For now I am hopeful that this is not a real problem.
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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dobryan
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AndyBees
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Transaxle Whine!? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| I’d run it. Enjoy your trip. |
I agree.
3rd gear (Weddle Gear) in my 2012 build whined from day one. Today, at well over 85k miles, it is much louder. The swarf has always been about what the OP's looks like.
Hopefully, I'll be looking at the insides of my transmission in a couple of months.
OP, keep us posted...
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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