Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:31 am    Post subject: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

I have the engine out of my '74SB for the winter to do some heavy maintenance and a new clutch. I don't expect that the engine will go back in until late March, since I am also doing some cleanup and maintenance on the car, while the engine is out of the way. I have installed new rings and the cylinders and heads are back in place. Everything was well lubricated with engine oil. My concern is that it may thin and drip out over a few months.

Is there a suggestion for perhaps filling it with oil and hand-cranking it every week or so? Or, should I just unplug the coil and rotate the engine with the starter in the spring? Any other ideas?

Thanks.
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
viiking
Samba Member


Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 2240
Location: Sydney Australia
viiking is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

I pulled the engine out of a car that had sat for 35 years (not a VW). I know the owner and it had not been turned over in that time as the pistons had seized due to a water leak when it was parked up.

The crankshaft bearings, valve train, camshaft bearings were still well oiled up with dirty old oil.

A few months in my opinion would not be a problem at all for you.

I would REMOVE the spark plugs and disconnect the coil and then run the starter until I got good oil pressure. This should only take a few seconds. Then restart. Removing spark plugs just allows the least load on the engine and allows the starter to turn more easily.

On rebuilding I use assembly oil as this is a lot thicker and tends to stay in place better than engine oil due to its viscosity.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Cusser
Samba Member


Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 29550
Location: Hot Arizona
Cusser is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

I had an engine sit for a dozen years, with no advance preparation. It started right up, but did need new fuel pump and accelerator pump, as those started leaking. Engine is still running fine today.

Yeah, pull the coil wire and crank with fresh oil - couldn't hurt !!!
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2011 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwracerdave
Samba Member


Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 14800
Location: Deep in the 405
vwracerdave is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Forget about all the Voo-Doo magic witchcraft crap and all the old wives tales. Install engine, check oil level, and fire the bitch up.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Thanks. Is it safe to hand crank the engine around to set the valve rocker clearance, etc.?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Rickf1985
Samba Member


Joined: November 26, 2022
Posts: 121
Location: NJ
Rickf1985 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

It won't hurt it. Personally I would pull the plugs and spin it on the starter and get oil pressure up and then spin it for again 10-15 seconds to get oil flowing a bit before making adjustments. That way everything is loosened up so you don't have to do the adjustment over again. The adjustments should not change one way or the other but that is just a personal preference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Right now the crankcase is empty. Would it help at all to fill it with oil and rotate by hand or does it really take the starter to force oil into the right places?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12342

Zundfolge1432 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Yes you need to rotate engine at cranking speed to build oil pressure. You can do this using a good battery and the duty cycle on a Bosch starter is about 20 seconds continuous before it gets hot. I canít even count how many engines we built over the years and started using this process.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Great. Thanks.
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Rickf1985
Samba Member


Joined: November 26, 2022
Posts: 121
Location: NJ
Rickf1985 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Yes, Be SURE to fill it with oil!!!! Good name brand oil, Just had another member on here use a cheap 30 wt. oil for a break in oil and it did not work out well for him. oil is cheap insurance, buy the good stuff. And that does not mean synthetic, I do not run synthetic in any of my old stuff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

I usually use Castrol GTX 2W 50. My question had more to do with whether filling it with oil while I still have it down in my basement and hand cranking it every so often would help keep things loose while waiting to go back in the car. It sounds like doing that won't really matter and it can stay dry until it is ready to be reinstalled? Or, is it good to get some oil back in it?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15241
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

sun-bug74 wrote:
I usually use Castrol GTX 2W 50.

Assuming you meant 20W-50??
Not sure they make 2W oil but if they did, it would be much too thin for use in an ACVW engine. Laughing


sun-bug74 wrote:
My question had more to do with whether filling it with oil while I still have it down in my basement and hand cranking it every so often would help keep things loose while waiting to go back in the car. It sounds like doing that won't really matter and it can stay dry until it is ready to be reinstalled?

While the engine is running or you crank it with the spark plugs removed to build oil pressure... oil is slung around the engine crank case and it coats all the surfaces that suffer friction. At the point the crank stops rotating these surfaces are still coated.
But when you hand crank the engine, your are moving parts against each other but NOT building oil pressure or circulating oil. The moving surfaces are scraping the oil off the surfaces.
Surfaces like the cam lobe+lifter foot which are under pressure from the valve springs and will squeeze the oil out and you will be left with a very light coat of oil on this surface. Same for the cylinder walls + piston rings.

Your concern with surfaces being stuck/rusted together being left immobile is less critical than what hand rotating the crank is doing inside the engine.
There is no problem hand cranking the engine today and starting it tomorrow or next week. The oil left of the surfaces will be fine for that short a period. Or the oxidation that can form where the oil was wiped off is negligible.

Like others have suggested, don't bother hand rotating you engine while it sits. It serves no purpose. Especially if we are talking only months.


What could you do to circulate oil on an engine that has been removed and will sit for years? Look up DIY ideas for oil priming a newly rebuilt engine. This is meant to circulate the coil thru the engine oil passages before first start. SUch devices can be used to prime your engine before it is left for a long storage. Here you want to hand crank (or starter crank) the engine while pumping oil in. This is functionally the same as cranking the engine with the spark plugs removed to circulate oil.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}


Last edited by ashman40 on Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

Thanks. Does it serve any purpose to fill the crankcase with oil even while it sits? It would seem to me that this would be better than just leaving it empty. i have done all of the things that I wanted to do to it that required it being drained. From what you have said, I would gather that filling it with oil to the proper level while gently hand cranking is better for it than not putting any oil into it at all during the storage period. Does that sound right?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15241
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

To be clear... filling it with oil and "hand cranking the engine" does nothing to circulate the oil or splash it onto engine components. You are not building any oil pressure when you rotate the engine by hand.

Since you assembled the engine with oil or assembly lube and have not yet broken it in (at least this is what I understand from your description)... any hand cranking you do is wiping away any oil you applied during assembly!
Grease or assembly lube being higher viscosity (thicker) may cling on longer but without running the engine or cranking it with the starter with the spark plugs removed... you are not oiling the engine, you are removing oil from the friction surfaces.

If you know you are planning to leave the engine sitting for years without running, I would suggest you drain all the fluids so water does not settle to the bottom of the case and start to corroded the case or drain plate. But if you know you will have it installed in the spring/summer and will get it running then... leave it alone and don't worry about it. The procedure you are considering are for an engine in long term storage (years/decades), not just a few months.


Here is my suggestion since you have already hand cranked the engine... remove the spark plugs. Spray some WD40 into each cylinder and then hand crank the engine 2 complete revolutions to spread the WD40 over the cylinder walls. Screw the spark plugs back in. Wrap the engine in plastic to keep dust and water off.
Come spring time when you get the engine installed and ready to start... connect the battery, remove the spark plugs and crank the engine to build oil pressure and get oil circulating. Reinstall the spark plugs and fire up the engine. If this is the first time you are running the engine run it thru a 20min break in run (search for steps on 1st run of a new engine). This is to break in the piston rings and any other bearings you may have installed.
When done, let the engine cool and change the oil.

That's my $0.02. Wink
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67rustavenger Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 8283
Location: Oregon
67rustavenger is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

No offense Ashman.
The 20 minute breakin period, is to breakin the camshaft and lifters.

The rings will get a little breakin time. But, the final breakin/seating takes place on the roadway.

OP I have an engine in my 67 currently, that sat for well over a year before I put it into service.
It sat without oil in it after the initial cam/lifter breakin.
When I installed it in my car. Fresh oil was added.

If you're gonna store the engine without oil in it. Put a piece of tape on the fan shroud. Write "No oil dummy" Very Happy on it. (< Not meant as an insult to you)
So you have a visual reminder to add oil, before starting the engine.
_________________
My stolen car and recovery story,
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761967

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sun-bug74
Samba Member


Joined: July 14, 2020
Posts: 157
Location: Gloucester, MA
sun-bug74 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

I agree with you on the reminder note. My basic question is which is better - fill it and let it sit or just leave it dry until install. Is one any better than the other?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle, Sunbug, Stock, Daily Driver
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67rustavenger Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 8283
Location: Oregon
67rustavenger is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

sun-bug74 wrote:
I agree with you on the reminder note. My basic question is which is better - fill it and let it sit or just leave it dry until install. Is one any better than the other?

If you lubed all the bearings, lifters, ect.....well.
Leave it empty, like Ashman stated.
The last thing you want is water pooling under the oil filled case and eating the case away.
_________________
My stolen car and recovery story,
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=761967

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15241
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
No offense Ashman.
The 20 minute breakin period, is to breakin the camshaft and lifters.

Good point. I agree the primary reason for break in run is mating the lifters to the cam. Good catch.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Rickf1985
Samba Member


Joined: November 26, 2022
Posts: 121
Location: NJ
Rickf1985 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Ensuring Good Lubrication for 1st Start After Engine Reinstalled Reply with quote

WD-40 is a solvent, not a lubricant. It has some lubricants in it but much more solvents. Spray some on a piece of metal and check on it in a week and it will be dry. It evaporates. Spraying it in the cylinders is not really a good idea. Find a spray lube that is not a solvent, look for something that is not a rust buster or nut remover. Those are solvents. I would not use spray grease since that could pack the cylinder, It has to be a liquid. If you don't have one of those refillable metal spray cans then now is a good time to get one and put some Marvel Mystery oil in it and spray some of that in the cylinders. You want decent pressure to vaporize the liquid so it coats the tops of the horizontal cylinders. As far as filling the crankcase, I originally said to fill it but I thought you were going to be cranking it on a starter. If it is just sitting leave it dry BUT, put a large visible tag on it stating NO OIL. This way down the road when you get it in and you are all exited to hear it run there are no accidents.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB