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Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head
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YuichiroM
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:44 pm    Post subject: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Hello

I want to change the engine lid hinge bolts in my 54 samba.

My engine lid hinge has six "phillips-head screw" and one "minus head screw" now.
Two are lost.
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Which one is the original?
phillips-head or minus head.


Yuichiro
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EverettB Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

My '55 Samba is slotted (minus head)
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I verified all of the screws are slotted.
I do not believe my decklid has ever been removed from the Bus.
The one pictured above is a little loose though. Smile
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Lou
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
My '55 Samba is slotted (minus head)
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I verified all of the screws are slotted.
I do not believe my decklid has ever been removed from the Bus.
The one pictured above is a little loose though. Smile
Is your 1955 bus a deluxe 23 window Everett? Picture? Thanks
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RockStock
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:30 am    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Yes, slotted.
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YuichiroM
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Thank you.
I will prepare nine slotted head.

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I can purchase this.
look the same? Wink

....Is the screwhead painted?
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RockStock
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Well, yes…M6x1.0, slotted, 16mm

But

1. Original screws had a conical point to make it easier to locate the screw when fitting the decklid
2. Modern day screws have a larger diameter head (11mm) than the old DIN63 spec (prob 9mm or so)

2) means modern day screws don’t seat properly in the hinge recess…they sit high

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If anyone has a solution…or a source for the old DIN63 screws…let it be known!

I had some modern screws machined down.

The decklids were fitted when the Barndoors were painted…but the hinge area did not get hit with much paint at all because of its hidden position. As we know, the Barndoor decklid hinge area/decklid fixing point is a rust trap, due to this lack of paint and its ability to hold water. I’d just paint the screws grey, to match the undercoat/primer.
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BeaterBarndoor
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

I ended up throwing newly available screws on a lathe. not as simple a task as buying off the shelf but did the job

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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

I think that Porsche 356 seat rail screws, part #64452100700 have the proper head.
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kalymnos Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

https://www.der-schraubenladen.de/oldtimerschrauben/din63/
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YuichiroM
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Oh, that makes sense!

Screwhead is 12mm in diameter. I was going to buy it.
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slotted of my Samba is about 10mm.
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After all the one that bought DIN63 looks good.

I want to change luggage rail screws.
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I was looking for similar slotted head.
Is the diameter of head different?
After all the one that bought DIN85, DIN91 looks good.
https://www.kreidlerparts.com/parts/00.16.12/Bolt-lens-counterhead-M6-x-35-din-91
https://www.kreidlerparts.com/parts/00.17.06/Cylinder-nut-M4-x-20-din-85
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RockStock
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Thank you for the link, kalymnos!

———

Yuichiro, you are lucky - I have recently been through this “correct screw” pain.

For the Luggage Bar Uprights screw, M6 x 25 DIN91 slotted raised head, you have a similar problem.
The head diameter on a modern screw is too big, so the screw stands proud. In the words of my Belgium friend, “Ugly!”

The same DIN91 spec screw is used for the main cargo door latch (35mm) and the bulkhead grab bar (20mm).

Original spec screw left, modern screw right:

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It’s this attention to detail that goes a long way to define the quality of a restoration. Ensure you check the Deluxes at a show! 👀

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For the horizontal Luggage Rails, choosing a similar modern screw is not so much a problem (M4 x 20 DIN85, slotted pan head) as the screw is not countersunk - it sits proud on top of the rail, not in a recess. These screws are part-threaded.

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(^sheared)

———

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Who restored your bus? They’ve just been pulled out of the kitchen drawer. He needs to stand trial! 😂 ⚖️⛓
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YuichiroM
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

My 54samba visited Japan from USA 33 years ago.
It was already this figure then.
Is the statute of limitations for restoration 30 years? 40 years? d'oh!

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/machine-screws/0560013
RSPRO has a branch office in Japan. I can buy it in Japan.
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YuichiroM
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

I removed bulkhead grab bar screw.
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Is the angle of the lower part same as DIN63? 90 degrees?
The upper curve is slow.
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Diameter of head is around 10mm both.
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In DIN63, length is 12mm. It is shorter than 15mm.
In DIN91, length is 23mm. It is longer than 20mm.
Why?
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Does Screw sold as DIN91 have a big head now?
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djfordmanjack
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

No, Actually your screws are fully correct to German DIN specs.
With countersunk screws length is measured from the top surface of countersunk hole ( around the perimeter of the screw head) to the top of the threads.
Obviously this is longer than the threads only. it is just the way countersunk DIN screws are defined.

also the heads ARE different. the screws for the engine lid hinge have a totally flat head. ( because actually they must have for proper clearance when hinge is closed)
The other screws ( mostly those which are fully visible on trim parts) have a slightly domed shape on the head. In German this is called 'Linsenkopfschraube' for a panhead screw like on the luggage rails or as stated in the parts list 'Linsensenkschraube' for the handles if it has a crowned AND countersunk head shape.
They are called Linsen....
Because it has the shape of a lens.
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YuichiroM
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

You're right.
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My DIN63 is M6x15mm.
My DIN91 is M6x25mm.
Balkhead grab bar originally has M6x20mm.

That means, it is right that Luggage bar Uprights has this DIN91.

http://www.autocrafteng.co.uk/shop/fasteners-fixin...-964_1911/

I think That most of sold DIN91 have size of DIN964 now.
https://www.globalfastener.com/standards/detail_527.html?lidpost=20051#parameter
Screwhead is big. it is 11mm in diameter.

I think this screw to be DIN964 and resemble a photograph by RockStock.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2267641

I have to be careful.
When I buy DIN91, It may be DIN964.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Engine lid hinge, phillips-head or minus head Reply with quote

Unfortunately that may be true. If the screws are stainless, you could machine down the head surface. the angle of 90° countersink will not be disturbed.
If you have repro grab bar ends, you could drill a larger countersink ( would never suggest that with og parts)

I am not associated with this shop, but they may have what you need.
DIN 91 M6x20

They are chromed and polished too !

The German note explicitly says that they are the 'old style with small head'.

https://www.chromschrauben24.de/DIN_91.php?page=gewinde

they also carry the DIN63 6x16, but they are chrome. ( not og finish for bus)

https://www.chromschrauben24.de/DIN_63.php?page=gewinde

you could as well simply touch them up with a small brush and black paint, once they are mounted.
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