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71 Beetle engine pull adventure
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baldessariclan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

mg50 wrote:
By the way, that is one beautifully restored engine.

Thank you! That’s a rebuild from couple years ago, when I was pursuing pretty much same as what sounds like you’re basically after. I.e. getting rid of all the oil leaks, crust, rust, and etc.

I was also trying to rectify a lot of the poor or questionably maintained items, odd and/or ill-advised modifications, and other various “molestations” which had occurred over the years. It was a fun & (mostly) successful project — I learned a lot! And makes for a better and more pleasant daily driver experience nowadays as well. Smile
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1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver

“Experience is what you get
when you didn’t get what you wanted...”


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Last edited by baldessariclan on Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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baldessariclan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Rickf1985 wrote:
Ah, I am not the only one with a busted up old floor! Although yours looks perfectly smooth compared to mine. Rolling Eyes

Ha! I was also using the old-school “shade tree mechanic” engine stand:

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Nothing like assembling an engine while sitting cross-legged on the ground — takes me back to high school and college days…. Smile
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when you didn’t get what you wanted...”


“good, fast, cheap -- pick any two”
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mg50 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Is there any need to disconnect wires to starter before dropping engine?
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baldessariclan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

mg50 wrote:
Is there any need to disconnect wires to starter before dropping engine?

No need that I am aware of.

Of course, you'll definitely want to disconnect the wires from the battery though, before removing any of the other engine wiring, fuel lines, etc.
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when you didn’t get what you wanted...”


“good, fast, cheap -- pick any two”
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

mg50 wrote:
Is there any need to disconnect wires to starter before dropping engine?


No. Starter remains bolted to the transmission with the remaining/untouched nut.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2011 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
mg50 wrote:
Is there any need to disconnect wires to starter before dropping engine?


No. Starter remains bolted to the transmission with the remaining/untouched nut.



Ok, So that's the "D" head bolt and it stays with the starter after the nut is removed. Sure wish I had steam cleaned the engine before setting all this up in my garage. But I do want to be able to trace the source of the leaks. I'll need to lay down some tarps and cardboard and spot clean it after it's out.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Got tired of waiting for my bro to help me so I went ahead and dropped the engine. All went well but I'm posting notes if it helps greenhorns like me.

- Bottom left nut resisted getting a socket on it so I used an offset wrench for both bottom nuts.
- Upper drivers-side bolt: Had help from you guys in an earlier thread- I assembled extensions with a universal head to get at the bolt. Just took off the wheel, jacked things up a bit, sat crosslegged and cuddled the brake drum as I navigated arms around stuff to make it happen.
- Upper right nut removed with a rachet head box end.

Wiggled and pulled the engine as I played with up & down on the motorcycle jack I used. Dropped it down ok. Used a floor jack and a piece of 4x4 to jack the tail up so I could pull out the engine with a little tilting.

Notes on looking at the exposed engine:
- Some sloppy tin work previously with bending, gaps and missing screws.
- Inside of bellhouse doesn't have any standing fluid, just crusty black buildup.
- Throwout bearing and clutch plate: don't know what to look for here but let me know if anything looks weird to you.
- Muffler has a hole near the tailpipe tube. Will replace muffler.

I'll start taking things apart this weekend to find leak. Looks like coming from oil cooler area. Thinking maybe I should also pull the heads to look at things, new pushrod tubes and re-torque. I bought a fuel pump from Bill Fowler, Sparxwerks. It's a thing of beauty. Still a little bothered by the position of the distributor positioned as it is. It's turned 90 degrees off, so the clips are front and back instead of on the sides. But I was able to set the timing and it ran ok. Is the positioning because of an error inside the case where the shaft engages?

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Rickf1985
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Put the snake to work cleaning the tough to get parts! My wife always yells at me when I tell her to leave the snakes around the house alone. If there are snake's there are no mice. Or at least less mice. I like snakes, I am a bit weird.
Bell housing looks like a high mileage unit, nothing jumps out at me. Possibly a leaky input seal. You are definitely going to want to replace the clutch and throwout bearing. I always replace the pressure plate myself but a lot of people do not. I also either have the flywheel turned or replace it. You will need new heater tubes, or at least one of them. You also want to stuff rags in them tonight before your buddy there finds them and moves in looking for mice. Keeping notes is a good thing, most of us old farts have been doing this so long we don't think to point that out to new mechanics. Take pics of everything before and during disassembly so if there is a question on how it went just go back and look at the pics. The wonders of digital photos. Us OLD guys had film cameras that you had to take the film to be processed. That all cost money.

I see you are using a 3/8" socket set, if you don't have a 1'2" drive set you will need it once you get to the gland nut or the rear wheel nuts. And a torque wrench. You will need a 1'/2" drive torque wrench for the gland nut, crank pulley and wheel nuts and a 3/8" torque wrench for most everything else. For the smaller one a lot of people are going with this from Harbor freight. https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-drive-59-to-59-ft-lbs-digital-torque-adapter-58705.html. I don't have one since I have the regular torque wrenches but they do look interesting and you can use the ratchet you already have.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Rickf1985 wrote:
Put the snake to work cleaning the tough to get parts! My wife always yells at me when I tell her to leave the snakes around the house alone. If there are snake's there are no mice. Or at least less mice. I like snakes, I am a bit weird.
Bell housing looks like a high mileage unit, nothing jumps out at me. Possibly a leaky input seal. You are definitely going to want to replace the clutch and throwout bearing. I always replace the pressure plate myself but a lot of people do not. I also either have the flywheel turned or replace it. You will need new heater tubes, or at least one of them. You also want to stuff rags in them tonight before your buddy there finds them and moves in looking for mice. Keeping notes is a good thing, most of us old farts have been doing this so long we don't think to point that out to new mechanics. Take pics of everything before and during disassembly so if there is a question on how it went just go back and look at the pics. The wonders of digital photos. Us OLD guys had film cameras that you had to take the film to be processed. That all cost money.

I see you are using a 3/8" socket set, if you don't have a 1'2" drive set you will need it once you get to the gland nut or the rear wheel nuts. And a torque wrench. You will need a 1'/2" drive torque wrench for the gland nut, crank pulley and wheel nuts and a 3/8" torque wrench for most everything else. For the smaller one a lot of people are going with this from Harbor freight. https://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-drive-59-to-59-ft-lbs-digital-torque-adapter-58705.html. I don't have one since I have the regular torque wrenches but they do look interesting and you can use the ratchet you already have.


Thanks for all that. I don't have any 1/2" drive stuff but can get. Not sure when clutch was last replaced but I notice that the pressure plate says made in Brazil, so maybe it's not so old? Previous owner seemed to be taking care of the car pretty well but I don't have info on its history.

I have a couple of beam type torque wrenches from the old days. One goes to 50 lbs and the other long one goes maybe 200, have to look. Hope I don't have to split the case or tackle any high torque nuts like the gland nut.

I ushered the little snake back to the woods.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

For torque of the gland nut, a 250 ft lb torque wrench is available as loaner from O'Reilly; I've done that before, now I have a Torque Tool.

Lots of crud in that bell housing. If you get a new pressure plate, you want one WITHOUT a center ring. Even if you had no issues with clutch slippage, add a new clutch disc (200mm). If you had slippage, then new pressure plate and new flywheel/re-machine flywheel.

Oil leak from oil cooler area: replace all four seals (doghouse coolers have four).
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2011 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
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Rickf1985
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

I finally broke down and bought a torque multiplier when I had to replace the pinion seal on my Dodge dually pickup, the pinion nut calls for 500 ft.lbs. torque! Those multipliers make thigs like axle nuts MUCH easier to remove also. three to one gearing so to get three hundred lbs. torque at the socket you only need to put 100 lbs. on the wrench. Actually it is a hair more if you figure in the friction losses in the tool but that is negligible.
This is the one I got, There are cheaper ones but I am a retired master mechanic and old habits die hard, I refuse to buy the cheapest tools. But I also sure as hell did not buy one from Snap-On!!!!!
https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source=GoogleShopping...nwQAvD_BwE
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baldessariclan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Hey, good job on getting it out! Smile

Along with inspecting and/or replacing the throwout bearing, you might want to consider replacing your rear transmission mounts - they’re looking a little bit tired (although I’ve seen a lot worse). In any case, now’s a good time to tackle those if you decide to replace.

If your flywheel is the original stock German one, I’d recommend keeping it - aftermarket replacements are generally inferior in quality, as compared to the originals. You can get it machined if it’s a bit rough, burned, or has minor warping, etc. Otherwise, just lightly sand the contact surface to break any glaze, and reuse. Likewise, if your pressure plate worked well before (i.e. smooth, chatter-free clutch operation), recommend lightly sanding and reusing.

You can re-clock the distributor to a new orientation if and as desired - all you need to do is rearrange the spark plug wires in distributor cap to correct positions after you’ve turned the distributor body to its new position. Rotate engine to TDC on cylinder #1, and note where the rotor points — that’s where the spark plug wire for cylinder #1 goes on the distributor cap, and then the other wires follow in order CCW from that point (i.e. 1 - 2 - 3 - 4, CCW). Alternately, you could lift and reposition the distributor drive gear itself, although that can be a bit more involved & fiddly process.
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when you didn’t get what you wanted...”


“good, fast, cheap -- pick any two”
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

I will take most of these recommendations while the engine is out. Though I'm still a little spooked about the clutch related stuff and removing heads. But all part of the fun of solving problems. I did some of this 40 years ago so I'm relearning. Really appreciate the feedback.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Image of transmission mounts for review.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Replace the mount on the left.
Replace the mount on the right.
Make sure the bolts don't extend too bar into the bell housing.

Check the front mount too.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2011 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Looks like that bell was clearanced for a 200 millimeter flywheel already. I see where the wheel is just touching the gunk there in the back and it is very close to the housing. So probably not the stock clutch but really should pull it apart anyway, especially with all the gunk in there. No telling if that stuff got on the disc.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Replace the mount on the left.
Replace the mount on the right.
Make sure the bolts don't extend too bar into the bell housing.

Check the front mount too.

Yeah, once again those are certainly not the worst transmission mounts I've ever seen, but they are still a little bit squashed, and it's relatively easy to replace them right now. Recommend replacing w/ stock rubber ones -- avoid the polyurethane mounts, unless you like increased engine noise in the cabin, plus potential for breakage & failure down the road.

Looks like your transmission cradle might be bent a little in middle as well -- not uncommon, since people sometimes try to jack car up at that point (which can definitely bend the cradle). Since it's often easiest to replace the transmission mounts by removing the cradle first (ref. Bentley manual), you could use that opportunity to inspect and straighten the cradle as well, using a vice or similar.
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when you didn’t get what you wanted...”


“good, fast, cheap -- pick any two”
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

baldessariclan wrote:
Looks like your transmission cradle might be bent a little in middle as well -- not uncommon, since people sometimes try to jack car up at that point (which can definitely bend the cradle). Since it's often easiest to replace the transmission mounts by removing the cradle first (ref. Bentley manual), you could use that opportunity to inspect and straighten the cradle as well, using a vice or similar.


I straightened the transmission cradle on my own 1970 during its resurrection in 2016-2017, straightforward.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2011 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

Rickf1985 wrote:
Looks like that bell was clearanced for a 200 millimeter flywheel already. I see where the wheel is just touching the gunk there in the back and it is very close to the housing. So probably not the stock clutch but really should pull it apart anyway, especially with all the gunk in there. No telling if that stuff got on the disc.


The clutch action on this car has always seemed too hard a push. It helped some when I cleaned out the clutch tube and put in a new cable and bowden hose, but still seems stiff.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Beetle engine pull adventure Reply with quote

baldessariclan wrote:

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I've never seen a vacuum can with the nipple angled down like that.
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