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NurseryWalt
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2016
Posts: 143
Location: Abbotsford, BC
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 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Hi Jeremiah,
Great job on the seats! I will eventually get there too.
Walter
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'66 Bug with collector plate and '73 412 project |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Well it has been a long time once again.Life happened and I had to put the whole project on hold so I could focus my attention on finishing my house and selling and buying a new. We have relocated to another part of the state and are very happy with our relocation.
The move although putting quite a delay on the project has had its bonuses such as the heated shop I acquired with the new home and the lift that I bought and installed.It has changed my life.
I have been back at it this winter and figured I was long overdue to get back to this forum and give everyone an update and maybe some advice to come.
I've since established and set up the new shop and started in on sealing up the bottom of the car and addressing any rust issues( basically back to what I was doing) I've got the whole front end all treated for rust sealed up and mechanics back together,fuel tank refurbished,brake calipers rebuilt, suspension bushings,and now the back end all sealed up and ready for motor and transmission the entire mechanics and bearings assembly is completely rebuilt and air bag setup is back together and ready for it's maiden voyage some day. The belly section is next it has a bit of metal work to be done around the battery tray and I uncovered one rear corner of the heater vent that was rusted from the foam.Other side is fine.Most of the rest of the car is solid!
I am know tearing apart the engine and I sent the transmission to a reputable shop months ago( someone with experience in doing a few of these before and highly recommend) but still hasn't started it .Engine is looking great.so far I am planning on staying stock found a great deal on some flat top mahles.gonna do a valve job and I'm looking at a new cam from the type 4 store the ones I've seen ray suggest using with fi .crank bearings are all looking good but nothing has been measured.although I did have questions about bluing on crank around journals of rods but many people have assured me that was just from the heat treatment.?
Anywho I'll be back around.Ill share some pics too and more pics and updates to come.
I am |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6598
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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What's that grey stuff sprayed on the fender well?
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| I believe it is a factory undercoating? And while it's my understanding that they usually cause more rust it is not the case with this car anywhere it is not missing and it hasn't fallen off there is shiny metal underneath...It has a consistency of seam sealer and I am patching areas with a brushable seam sealer. |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6598
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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So they grey is just paint you put over everything? I thought you put some kind of undercoating on it.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
| I believe it is a factory undercoating? And while it's my understanding that they usually cause more rust it is not the case with this car anywhere it is not missing and it hasn't fallen off there is shiny metal underneath...It has a consistency of seam sealer and I am patching areas with a brushable seam sealer. |
That stuff you were grinding away that is under the paint on the inside of your fenders that is kind of wrinkly and rough...and grinds away to white dust....is factory semi-rigid undercoating.
Its the same stuff used on many Porsche and a lot of Audi's and Mercedes. And you are correct. It has little or nothing to do with rusting...as long as its still intact and water tight.
One of the problems you can see here and there especially under the front end is that where they got it on excessively thick...like 0.125" or thicker ...when its on longer expanses of sheet metal that can flex over time...it cracks in the deeper areas.
This lets moisture seep down to the metal and THAT can cause rust.
So its not the undercoating ...its just how its applied. That stuff is bulletproof.
You can buy nearly exact versions of it in both spray cans and in gallons to use with a "shutz" gun. The Porsche guys swear by it. You can also get a very close/good version of it spray cans from NAPA.
I have a whole section of my thread about undercoating my front end and will be doing the rest in the early fall if all goes well. You can see the undercoating work on page 2
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Heimlich,
Sorry I guess in some photos it looks a big grey.It is actually black I think that's just a glare It has been cleaned of rust on areas where undercoating missing, then Eastwood rust converter plus,then seam sealer to patch up missing undercoating then a final layer( only on the originally undercoated shell and not the parts)got a rubberized undercoating.
Maybe someone can tell me how to reply to someone specifically or highlight their reply as I see others do. I can't figure it out.🤔 |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6598
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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I can see how that might be black. Wow. It looks good nonetheless. You are making nice progress.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Heimlich,
Sorry I guess in some photos it looks a big grey.It is actually black I think that's just a glare It has been cleaned of rust on areas where undercoating missing, then Eastwood rust converter plus,then seam sealer to patch up missing undercoating then a final layer( only on the originally undercoated shell and not the parts)got a rubberized undercoating.
Maybe someone can tell me how to reply to someone specifically or highlight their reply as I see others do. I can't figure it out.🤔 |
To reply to a person just hit the "quote" in the upper right corner of the comments. That will highlight that person's quote and respond underneath, just like I have. I think that is what you are looking for unless you are sending a personal message which is a whole different animal.
Good to have you back! Nice looking work you are doing. Looks like you have less rust issues than I had. My front inner fenders were the worst but it is all gone and taken care of. This reminds me of my project where I was keeping everything like it just came out of the factory. I like stock stuff. Hopefully you are staying with the yellow body color. Which yellow is your car? I think there were 2 shades of yellow in '73.
Bill |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Heimlich,
Sorry I guess in some photos it looks a big grey.It is actually black I think that's just a glare It has been cleaned of rust on areas where undercoating missing, then Eastwood rust converter plus,then seam sealer to patch up missing undercoating then a final layer( only on the originally undercoated shell and not the parts)got a rubberized undercoating.
Maybe someone can tell me how to reply to someone specifically or highlight their reply as I see others do. I can't figure it out.🤔 |
To reply to a person just hit the "quote" in the upper right corner of the comments. That will highlight that person's quote and respond underneath, just like I have. I think that is what you are looking for unless you are sending a personal message which is a whole different animal.
Good to have you back! Nice looking work you are doing. Looks like you have less rust issues than I had. My front inner fenders were the worst but it is all gone and taken care of. This reminds me of my project where I was keeping everything like it just came out of the factory. I like stock stuff. Hopefully you are staying with the yellow body color. Which yellow is your car? I think there were 2 shades of yellow in '73.
Bill |
Thank you Bill , I do tend to like the stock stuff myself and I restored my beetle to mostly stock, but have decided to venture a bit with this one.. I plan on keeping it mostly stock but a bit of custom as well.such as the air bags and I am considering installing a big aftermarket rag top.Ive considered doing some other work such as shaving/ changing lights and some bumper modifications but I am torn between saving this rarity and making it my own truthfully...we'll see how it goes when it comes to those decisions. But there is no way in the world I'm changing the 'Texas' yellow. I love the color and all my kids and myself refer to it as " the yellow car". |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| So I am trying to decide what cam to buy and how to go about cam gears I want to keep everything stock and keep the fuel injection and am wondering the best way to accomplish this, do I use my stock cam gear? I am looking at either a LN 9590 or a web 73 the 9590 comes with a new gear but will I be better off with the stock matched gear? Or can I put the stock gear on the 9590 without issues? I'm currently planning on Flat top mahles 90s and without the shims I should be right about stock compression of 8.2/1..can I run these cams and keep everything else stock such as pushrods and rockers ( with attention to geometry of course)?Any other modifications involving these cams vs. stock? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
| So I am trying to decide what cam to buy and how to go about cam gears I want to keep everything stock and keep the fuel injection and am wondering the best way to accomplish this, do I use my stock cam gear? I am looking at either a LN 9590 or a web 73 the 9590 comes with a new gear but will I be better off with the stock matched gear? Or can I put the stock gear on the 9590 without issues? I'm currently planning on Flat top mahles 90s and without the shims I should be right about stock compression of 8.2/1..can I run these cams and keep everything else stock such as pushrods and rockers ( with attention to geometry of course)?Any other modifications involving these cams vs. stock? |
What fuel system are you running? The web 73, the 9550 and 0590 will all run with the D-jet injection but will probably need a few tweaks.
The new gear will be fine. People get a little too hung up on the gear size. If its way off in backlash...you can always reuse your old one with a little machine work.
the new gears are the same ones that Web sells and they told me directly that they are all a -2 or -3.
The 9590 is based "around" the web #73...which is based around the early V cam from 411 and early 412...in valve timing. It has a bit more duration and lift. The 9590 should be a slightly better running cam with D-jet than the Web #73...especially idle wise.
You need to get that cam with the matched lifteres. Check everything else you have as well. Yes you can use the stock pushrods if you do not have to shim too far for geometry.
The reason I say look at the condition of everthing you have before you order...because if you need other things like pushrods or Porsche swivel feet (highly reccomend these)...then it sometimes makes better since to get L&N's deluxe kit that has everything. Pushrods, Porsche swivel feet...the good ones...cam, lifters, gear, bearings...and you can get the double thrust cam bearing option as well. Yes it costs more but when you work out all thats in it and what those things cost and all of the shipping from different places...its a bargain. Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
| So I am trying to decide what cam to buy and how to go about cam gears I want to keep everything stock and keep the fuel injection and am wondering the best way to accomplish this, do I use my stock cam gear? I am looking at either a LN 9590 or a web 73 the 9590 comes with a new gear but will I be better off with the stock matched gear? Or can I put the stock gear on the 9590 without issues? I'm currently planning on Flat top mahles 90s and without the shims I should be right about stock compression of 8.2/1..can I run these cams and keep everything else stock such as pushrods and rockers ( with attention to geometry of course)?Any other modifications involving these cams vs. stock? |
What fuel system are you running? The web 73, the 9550 and 0590 will all run with the D-jet injection but will probably need a few tweaks.
The new gear will be fine. People get a little too hung up on the gear size. If its way off in backlash...you can always reuse your old one with a little machine work.
the new gears are the same ones that Web sells and they told me directly that they are all a -2 or -3.
The 9590 is based "around" the web #73...which is based around the early V cam from 411 and early 412...in valve timing. It has a bit more duration and lift. The 9590 should be a slightly better running cam with D-jet than the Web #73...especially idle wise.
You need to get that cam with the matched lifteres. Check everything else you have as well. Yes you can use the stock pushrods if you do not have to shim too far for geometry.
The reason I say look at the condition of everthing you have before you order...because if you need other things like pushrods or Porsche swivel feet (highly reccomend these)...then it sometimes makes better since to get L&N's deluxe kit that has everything. Pushrods, Porsche swivel feet...the good ones...cam, lifters, gear, bearings...and you can get the double thrust cam bearing option as well. Yes it costs more but when you work out all thats in it and what those things cost and all of the shipping from different places...its a bargain. Ray |
The Thank you ray, that answers a lot of my questions.Ive never really had a clear understanding of what to do with the gears and backlash when rebuilding and the last engine I assembled it all worked out fine.Yes it is a djet.I did see the deluxe kit and I will consider that although everything I have is very nice with low miles.The gear I have now is a -3 so that should work good if anything with the web..I will definitely buy lifters and cam together and I would really just go with the 9590 deluxe kit but geez things are expensive and I'm trying to do it right without spending too much... |
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hulken
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Well it has been a long time once again.Life happened and I had to put the whole project on hold so I could focus my attention on finishing my house and selling and buying a new. We have relocated to another part of the state and are very happy with our relocation.
The move although putting quite a delay on the project has had its bonuses such as the heated shop I acquired with the new home and the lift that I bought and installed.It has changed my life.
I have been back at it this winter and figured I was long overdue to get back to this forum and give everyone an update and maybe some advice to come.
I've since established and set up the new shop and started in on sealing up the bottom of the car and addressing any rust issues( basically back to what I was doing) I've got the whole front end all treated for rust sealed up and mechanics back together,fuel tank refurbished,brake calipers rebuilt, suspension bushings,and now the back end all sealed up and ready for motor and transmission the entire mechanics and bearings assembly is completely rebuilt and air bag setup is back together and ready for it's maiden voyage some day. The belly section is next it has a bit of metal work to be done around the battery tray and I uncovered one rear corner of the heater vent that was rusted from the foam.Other side is fine.Most of the rest of the car is solid!
I am know tearing apart the engine and I sent the transmission to a reputable shop months ago( someone with experience in doing a few of these before and highly recommend) but still hasn't started it .Engine is looking great.so far I am planning on staying stock found a great deal on some flat top mahles.gonna do a valve job and I'm looking at a new cam from the type 4 store the ones I've seen ray suggest using with fi .crank bearings are all looking good but nothing has been measured.although I did have questions about bluing on crank around journals of rods but many people have assured me that was just from the heat treatment.?
Anywho I'll be back around.Ill share some pics too and more pics and updates to come.
I am |
Nice air-ride struts! Do you have air in he rear too, or planned to have? I am hoping for air-ride on all corners of my 412, so I would love more pictures of your setup.
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| hulken wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Well it has been a long time once again.Life happened and I had to put the whole project on hold so I could focus my attention on finishing my house and selling and buying a new. We have relocated to another part of the state and are very happy with our relocation.
The move although putting quite a delay on the project has had its bonuses such as the heated shop I acquired with the new home and the lift that I bought and installed.It has changed my life.
I have been back at it this winter and figured I was long overdue to get back to this forum and give everyone an update and maybe some advice to come.
I've since established and set up the new shop and started in on sealing up the bottom of the car and addressing any rust issues( basically back to what I was doing) I've got the whole front end all treated for rust sealed up and mechanics back together,fuel tank refurbished,brake calipers rebuilt, suspension bushings,and now the back end all sealed up and ready for motor and transmission the entire mechanics and bearings assembly is completely rebuilt and air bag setup is back together and ready for it's maiden voyage some day. The belly section is next it has a bit of metal work to be done around the battery tray and I uncovered one rear corner of the heater vent that was rusted from the foam.Other side is fine.Most of the rest of the car is solid!
I am know tearing apart the engine and I sent the transmission to a reputable shop months ago( someone with experience in doing a few of these before and highly recommend) but still hasn't started it .Engine is looking great.so far I am planning on staying stock found a great deal on some flat top mahles.gonna do a valve job and I'm looking at a new cam from the type 4 store the ones I've seen ray suggest using with fi .crank bearings are all looking good but nothing has been measured.although I did have questions about bluing on crank around journals of rods but many people have assured me that was just from the heat treatment.?
Anywho I'll be back around.Ill share some pics too and more pics and updates to come.
I am |
Nice air-ride struts! Do you have air in he rear too, or planned to have? I am hoping for air-ride on all corners of my 412, so I would love more pictures of your setup. |
Thanks man, yes I do have the rear too and I'll get some pics of that and post them.I was gonna make a post eventually to show what I did and will hopefully do that too soon..keep an eye out this weekend I'll post some more pics of the rear.. |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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I kept my front struts/shocks stock but am certainly interested in how the air bags will work out. Will be following this for sure. The problem I have is someday I will have to replace the front shock inserts. We all know there are no new replacements or are there? I see you appear to have new front shock inserts. Is this stock and what did you use?
Curious about a large ragtop you are thinking about. Hopefully not a full blown convertible.
Bill |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
I kept my front struts/shocks stock but am certainly interested in how the air bags will work out. Will be following this for sure. The problem I have is someday I will have to replace the front shock inserts. We all know there are no new replacements or are there? I see you appear to have new front shock inserts. Is this stock and what did you use?
Curious about a large ragtop you are thinking about. Hopefully not a full blown convertible.
Bill |
Well...actually there are!
So, the Audi strut insert (which also fits a range of other watercooled VW's) is actually pretty well perfected. I have driven most of 100K miles on it and have done the third set for myself and two sets for other people.
Now that I have figured out what scrapyard old strut inserts to buy and cut the top 4" off of to build the adapter for the Audi strut cartridge...there is no machine work to actually pay for. If you have an angle grinder with cut off wheel and even a bench top drill press to use you can make the strut top adapter ...looking like a factory part....in about 30 minutes for less than a $10 bill and maybe the cost of a 14mm tap and die.
The step adapter for the ride height that drops into the strut body tube costs just a few $ and an hour or so to make out of readily available steel pipe.
I spent a couple of years looking at valving in struts in over 50 vehicles back in the late 90's to find what works with our weight and leverage.
A days work and you have teh ability to use a wide range of readily available strut cartridges with valving that is superior to the factory by several orders of magnitude.
You can set the ride height level or even lower by about 1.5" (not really recommended on a 411/412)...you can use low pressure gas like KYB GR-2 (highly recommend)....or high pressure gas if you want (don't do that)...or oil struts (good ones should work very well. The valving is the same).
There have been also...two people here that in the past two years...both in Europe or Australia....have gotten strut cartridges that seem to be made for 411/412 from either Bilstein or Spax. I have asked in these forums several times...what model or part # they are....and they never answer.
Legend...or rumor....has it that either a Ford Capri from late 70's or 80's...or one of the Volvo 240-ish models....used the same strut cartridge for a year or two. Never seen it to be true...yet.
EDIT:
Decided five minutes later to revisit this....
So here is the latest thread that lists Spax. Scroll down in it.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578266&highlight=spax
So the operative Spax front strut cartridge number is TAG1177-1
Doing Google on that number and Spax gets me here....
FCP Euro shows a Volvo part for 740, 745, 760, 780, 940, 960 cars....ok
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-suspension-...5jEALw_wcB
At a glance it looks just like the Audi/VW strut and is probably similar, but not sure of valving which is critical.
But in that other Samba thread....the step adapter they have on that Spax strut insert IS the correct set up to adjust for 411 and 412 usage.....and by the way....that is the exact same modification I am speaking of when I say to use the Audi cartridge. The issue is that the Audi cartridge body is shorter than it needs to be but the actual rod length is longer than it needs to be on some cars and shorter than it needs to be on others. Easy to fix with the stub adpater.
On late 412's you leave the top of the Audi/Spax/Kyb strut alone...bolts right up...and simply spacer the strut insert inside of the strut body tube to give you the correct ride height. On early and middle years 411 and 412 you need a top thread adpater...depending on what bump stop and boot you want to use.
But you do have to be careful. Some of the offerings I have seen over the decades for "fits VW 411-412" for front strut inserts....are actually Super Beetle strut cartridges.
And...they do have the correct top thread and step for the differences between early , middle and late 411/412 cars....but the bottom fits a little different (still workable)...but the valving is totally wrong.
Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Yes the Bilstein shock inserts are real and I ran them before going with the air bags and have a pair that I would consider selling with very low miles.They where very pricy new like 200 a piece ....I believe the part # is Bilstein Front B6 Sport Shock Absorber - 34-000311 I bought them from Bilstein/UK.com.
No bill not that big! just a typical ragtop a bit longer to the proportions of the wagon.. infinity I think? They make them for the bugs and are popular but have a longer version.
On another note...my mahles where not legitimate and I have returned them . Fortunately they where bought through eBay and seller is cooperating with return and shipping, the piston manufacturer brand in the casting was ground off the inside and the stamping on the top was very suspicious. From Egypt should have known better but it was eBay so I took a chance.. should be ok but now I'm back to the drawing board and AA is about the only option am I right? I did read before about the quality of the rings that come on AA these days? I do have a pair of nos cofap rings that I could swap out...
Last edited by Jeremiah Berger on Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 45
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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And another note I believe.i am using the audi
strut in the airbag setup if my memory serves me correctly |
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