Chunking clunking starter.??

[Wulfthang]

I have a Ford old school V6 mounted on a VW 69-70 transaxle. The adapter is a KEP. My starter recently died so I had to replace it. (The pull starter sucks!) The dead one was one for a standard trans with the bushing but I replaced it with the one for the auto trans.

The auto one was much beefier in the nose and also in the body. It drew more amps, hence more power. It worked great but sounded kind of chunky. The old one did too right before it died. Now this one is doing the same thing.

It's not whining as in skipping teeth. It's a kind of chunking sound while it's spinning the engine over. It starts right away and the sounds are all normal from there on. No sticking or anything like that. It's almost as if the starter pinion gear is too close and binding on the ring gear.

Did VW's use shims on their starters? Can they be shimmed?

[jsturtlebuggy]

Shims are not used on VW starters. If noise was there before there something else happening.
Did you look at the teeth on ring gear?
Could flywheel be coming loose?
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[Wulfthang]

[jsturtlebuggy]

Ok you ask what could cause noise. I gave suggestions.
First thing I would do is look at ring gear teeth and see if they are in good shape.
If worn it can cause noises.
If the flywheel is loose you would feel a vibration from it.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[dirtkeeper]

I just replaced the starter on my vw van with an automatic style starter last week. I don’t know the sound you exactly refer to but it does sound a little more “ metallic” then the old one I had. Starts and runs fine. Maybe it is just crappy new parts syndrome

[Wulfthang]

Ok, it might just be a normal noise for this type of starter. It's the more powerful auto starter. I checked the teeth when I put this one in and they were fine. We'll see.

[dustymojave]

I've been using the SR17 automatic starter for decades. Put one in my Hi Jumper when I built it in the 70s. I've never had such an issue. I would agree with Joe (jsturtlebuggy) above.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[Wulfthang]

I never felt any vibrations or pulsing from the clutch pedal so I'm sure the flywheel is tight. The starter died yesterday. It was heavy duty auto type and only three days old. But it's not totally dead so I'm going to do some surgery on it.

I tried to start it and it did but the engine died so I tried it again. All it do would is scream at me! Now that did sound like broken teeth! Except it wasn't! I pulled the starter and the pinion teeth looked almost perfect. I couldn't get an eyeball on the ring teeth but I took some photo's.

No. it's ain't pretty but there's nothing really broken off. Since the pinion gear is in very good shape, there's no busted teeth but it's doing the "Busted Tooth Scream", I think it's not engaging. The pinion is just butting up against the ring gear and spinning without interlocking.

If I magnify the image (& the others), I can see wear marks on the face of both gears that supports that idea.

I started disassembling the starter last night to see if the Bendix is sticky or the solenoid is to weak to properly kick it out. Anybody ever seen that before?

[Dale M.]

Flywheel teeth are toast..... Time to replace flywheel....
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[Wulfthang]

Yeah, the tips of the individual teeth are smunched over but it should be engaging with more than just the tips, right? I guess it's possible it was a mismatch. I got the Ford V6 and the KEP kit out of another car years ago and don't know it's history.

I took the starter apart and found that the solenoid was sticky and seemed weak. I had to hit it with more than battery voltage to get it to hit solidly. (Bench top power supply) I cleaned it up so it's not sticky anymore and will do a "live fire" test tomorrow. The starter itself seemed smooth and hit solidly.

So this brings up another train of thought. Starter Ring and Pinion wear. I know there are some starter/flywheel combos that are always engaged but this isn't one of them. It only engages under "Start" mode, then disengages. It runs dry and wears accordingly! It wears hard for the actual amount of spinning that it does.

Why isn't it lubricated with something? Because of contamination of the clutch plates? It can be done without doing that if you're careful. Because it causes it to pick up dirt and debris which accelerates wear and tear? Motorcycle chain lubes go on wet and dry so they're not sticky and don't pick up crap. They also stick to the chain and gears so they don't get slung off.

I researched it on the Internet and found that the most common reason not to, is because grease picks up dirt but even that was kind of iffy because of non sticky chain lubes.

So what's the story? Has anybody done it? Has anybody seen any results?

[jsturtlebuggy]

Your ring gear on flywheel is worn out. It needs to be replaced before it strands you somewhere.
With the shape it is in, it going to wear the teeth on the starter gear too.
Putting Lube on ring gear is not done on any vehicle. All it would do is collect clutch disc.
It is not going to fix its’ self.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[Wulfthang]

I looked at the gear with a remote eyeball camera and although it's not looking pretty, it's not really as bad as the still shot makes it look. The still shot with the flash makes it look like half the gears are worn off. They're not. Just the tips are worn. I'm going to try it.

Regarding lubricating the ring gear on the flywheel: I've spent hours researching it. It's been standard practice to not lubricate the starter ring gear for several reasons.
1...It's not needed.
2...It just makes a mess.
3...We've never lubricated the gear so why start now?
4...The lube will contaminate the clutch.
5...There's no lubricant that will stick to the ring gear while it's spinning.
6...The lube will attract dirt and debris.
7...There's no lubricant that will survive the mangling between those gears.

Number's 1, 2 and 3 are crap answers. Sure the lube could contaminate the clutch so don't slop it on!

Numbers 5,6 and 7 are very true....if it were still nineteen sixty! Modern lubricants are like magic compared to that old stuff! I'll use chain lubricants as an example. They go on wet and then dry to the touch. No dust or debris pick up. It will not sling off and it'll have no problem surviving between the gears. The dry Molybdenum Disulfide lubricants are pretty amazing too.

I could not find any valid reasons not to lube the gear. "Because we've never done it before" isn't valid.

I'm going to try it. I'm going to drill a little hole....just big enough for the squirt tube on a can of lube to fit in...perfectly in line with the gear. Then give it a short squirt while it's running. That'll do two things. Lightly coat all of the gear teeth and sling any excess off.

It may not work but if it doesn't, I'll have a valid reason why not!!!

[cbeck]

A few of the things I service don’t want lube. They want dirt, dust, etc to fall away instead of mixing with the lube and turning into a gritty paste.
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www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779

[Wulfthang]

Many years ago, chemical companies started developing so called "dry lubricants". They go on wet and then dry so it's not a dirt magnet. Some companies even went so far as to develop coatings that contained lubricant, like a slick paint. One of them contained large quantities of Molybdenum Disulfide. I've used those types of coatings on pistons, gears, chains, cables, firearms, etc. etc. etc. They hold up well and do not attract dirt, etc. It's old technology.

No, the starter ring and pinion don't spend a lot of time running. However, the wear that they get shows the incredible amount of force that they operate under. Of course those gears can benefit from lubricant. With the advent of modern dry lubricants, there's no reason not to.

I'm going to try it. If it goes bad for some reason, I'll know what that reason is besides "Well, we ain't never done it thataway before"!