Warm or Cold Trans Drain

[Igeo]

I realize it's provbably better to drain the gear oil after things have had a chance to warm up and suspend offending bits, but as part of other overall maintenance, it's just more convenient to drain it cold at the moment. Does it really make that much difference?
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[dobryan]

Draining it cold is much better than not draining it. I'd do it cold if that is more convenient and apt to get done.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

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[Sodo]

One benefit of draining cold is you get to see the christmas tree as the tinsel falls onto it from above.
It's prettier.

Not that pretty though. But if you watch the amount of trash to guage gearbox health, then prob better to look at it without a wash-off.

Whereas recently driven, the R&P right next to it gives it a good washoff. The trash is suspended in the oil and it comes out anyway.

I would drain it cold if it's been sitting for a few weeks, just to see the tree.

But it doesn't make that much difference, especially if you are going to replace gear oil on a regular basis.

If you have to leave the oil in for 30k miles or something, then maybe drain it hot/stirred to get every last bit of trash suspended.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[AndyBees]

Also, if possible, let it sit overnight to continue the drip. You'd be surprised how much more will trickle out.

Hopefully, by the end of February, I'll be removing the DK that's been in my Van for over 11 years and 85k miles pushed by a TDI engine. The last oil change was about 20k miles back with Pennzoil Synchromesh. I did change it several times early on and then at 15-20k mile intervals.

I plan to allow it to drain overnight and then, while still in place, pour in some kerosene and/or diesel fuel sort of as a flush to see what drains out as well as see what's left when I get it out and remove the bell housing (will not start the engine)....... mainly to see if a flush is worth the effort or maybe even the wrong thing to do. Since junk settles on the bottom, it just might wash/flush out.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[Igeo]

OK, draining it cold works at the moment, and I can let it drain for several days if it still drips. I guess if the front end was a little higher than the back, I could try a solvent flush. I'd want to be sure it was all out of there though.

Thought I'd use this to re-fill:

_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[Honuak]

Im about to do a trans fluid change and add a temp sensor.

I plan to prop the fron of the van up ~12" and allow it to drain overnight.

And I'm wondering if I could try to clean/flush the trans while it is empty. Others suggest putting cheaper oil in, driving and draining but I imagine using my handy pressure sprayer inserted into the fill and drain holes
I see trans flush fluids for sale. Thougths?

[Sodo]

If putting synthetic in an "old trans" I'd take a look at it after a few weeks,
or after it's been driven "hot" & fast a couple times on the freeway for an hour etc.
If it's dark, I'd change it again soon.

Here's a "Waldi" pic of an old gearbox, where trash sediments due to
the centrifugal forces in the differential.
There are several locations in the gearbox that accumulate the heavier trash in this way.
Synthetic can soften, loosen, and wash off old sedimented trash.
I suppose a flush solvent would do it too.
Which is OK I guess, if you can flush it OUT.
That's the problem with switching over to $100 synthetic on an old trans.
Prob better to try "el cheapo synthetic" first and see if it quickly gets dark.
I don't know it "el cheapo synthetic" has the cleaning action that some gearbox experts warn about.

Or let sleeping dogs lie, and just keep the oil clean.

Is that Delvac 'thick' or 'thin'?
Modern "fuel-saving" gear oils for modern cars are probably not good for our old vans.
Our vans need thick oil.
I don't know anything about Delvac.....nothing.
It should say "for hypoid" if it's going in a Vanagon.

I'd have no qualms about running a gearbox with "flush fluid" in it in a no-load situation, like on jacks.
It will be a cold flush - which may work.
If it comes out dark - it's getting trash out.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Igeo]

Full disclosure with regards to the Delvac.
I've been running it for the past 20,000 miles or so over 4 years, and have no complaints. Quiet running and smooth shifting, with no leaks. I'll post up a photo of what comes out.
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[djkeev]

This has been discussed to nauseatum about engine oil.
There seem to be as much opinion on this topic as there is on what engine oil to use.

IMHO........
When oil is warm, the contaminates are in suspension and not settled onto the case bottom or onto various components.
Pull the plug..... whoosh! All that crud rushes out with the warm oil.

However...... do as you see best but bottom line? Change it.
_________________
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Sodo]

[djkeev]

Oh, I didn't mean it negatively, I was just saying the same as you...... either is fine, just change it........

A link to one discussion......

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
_________________
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[IdahoDoug]

I'm on the anal end of the scale, but when I plan a fluid change, I put all the tools and stuff out on the floor and go run errands with the vehicle. On arrival home, I slam the drain pan in position and whiz off the plug. Then I always allow it to sit an hour or more and often sit overnight. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to treat my flock that way...
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[dobryan]

[Igeo]

Wound up putting two 500 watt shop lights under the trans for 5 hours before pulling the plug. The oil appeared clean and was warm. Here's the magnet. No metal, but it was covered in "mud". The van was parked weeks ago after a 2500 mile trip to AZ and back, so whatever was in the oil has settled. No metal is good news, but the mud at the bottom of the case.....

Refill with the Delvac and stop obsessing or attempt to flush it out?

_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[bobbyblack]

I've done 3 manual transaxle drain/fills since I got the '87 in 2015. First time was just 'normal' gear oil. It shifted fine, no noticeable improvements in hot/cold weather. First plug pull was pretty hairy. The next year I wanted to head towards Synthetic. Decided Swepco was where I wanted to land. I drained my oil warm, there was less fur, but still some on the plug, and that was after only about 20K mi. so certainly there had been more cruft in the inside, or my trans had ground away that much more fur over that short of a time.. or both. So, I used some inexpensive non-synth, drove it hard for about 100 miles and drained it warm again. My shop has a decent spot to let the rear or front ends down a ways, depending on if I back in or front in, so that part was easy. The Swepco (210?) I put in now a couple years back is "stiff" to shift in winter. I am temped to go Sodo on it and drain it, and let it settle out for a few months. The oil itself isn't bad, just the stuff floating in it. I'll dig up my reference plug pix and edit, if I remember after I plow snow and take a nap, oh, and mom has lunch on the stove for noon'ish ... so we'll see I guess.

If I had heard of manual transaxle "washout fluid" I probably would have done that. I have used ATF in my engine oil, between changes, let it idle up to temp, and drained that, so I wouldn't put it past "me" to do something like that with the trans too.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[Sodo]

Don't beat yourself up for obsessing WRT your hobby.
You investigated carefully and now you know your gearbox is in good health.
That's what you wanted to know, and that's what you had to do, to obtain this knowledge.
Now you can think of nice gears/bearings as you squirt down the highway, 1,000 miles from home (etc).
Knowledge is key.

And what the heck is a hobby for?
Whadda you gonna do if not an antique vehicle, beanie babies?
Just don't discuss it outside of your hobbyist enclave and it's all good.
--------------

That's a neat idea to warm the gearbox and preserve the christmas tree indicator.
As long as you're taking precautions that it won't ignite the van!
An oily deposit softening, dripping onto the 4,000°F lamp and flashing into a little flame for a moment....
But measures can be taken, sensible placement and prudent observation....
Just a general caution.

OK on to the magnet.
You extracted a candid magnet under the gentlest of conditions and there are no 'strings of longer shards'.
Like "zero".
How often do we see this?
Can you tell us some details about miles/engine/weight/festoonery/speed etc?

If that's 20,000 miles I'm gonna guess that your gearbox is in nice condition.
Wouldn't it be great if there was some feller who would tear it apart and confirm this 'notion'?
But that's wishing for ~$2,000 of meticulous craftsman labor so we're gonna have to keep guessing.
All we ever get pics of, is when a gearbox is worn out, then driven 30,000 miles further,
totally obliterating all the indicators that we could have learned from.

The magnetic black dust though, is still steel that you prefer to remain on a gear or bearing but is now on the magnet for disposal.

I wish we know how many grams of steel erosion was the minimum possible for our vans.
But there's engine size, typical speed driven, cruise control, typical weight, city/highway usage,
current stage of the gearbox' lifetime, part quality, external festoonery, driving style,
too many variables.
We'll never know.

We do have the "recent discovery" of electrical erosion, it costs only $15 (and minor DIY effort)
to isolate the gearbox from ever passing another amp forward to that little tool of Satan
and thus wiping one more little gearbox tax off the list.
....also ensuring your starter doesn't lag from lost volts, can't knock that.

That's all we've got.

Cool.
Igeo, that took planning, effort, time given freely to your Vanagon clan.
Thanks for the warming idea and the very nice pics.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Igeo]

It was a 50 degree day and the applied heat added about 25 degrees to the case and the oil too, so it did flow out of the hole nicely. I kept track of how hot stuff was getting under there during the 5 hours. All seemed fine.

I think I'm going to use the same Delvac synthetic 75w-90 oil since it does seem to do the job. It does not have limited slip additives which is evidently appreciated by the Porsche guys. Seems to be good stuff.

As for the van, the previous 2 owners documented maintenance really well- a spreadsheet was even created detailing virtually every service since new. Frighteningly complete, but no evidence of any transmission work, only a couple of clutches. We sit at just under 210k miles now.

Van has a stock 2.1 and I shift it gently and don't lug grades in 4th gear. We do live in California and spend much of our time either in the California, Oregon Arizona or Nevada mountains and deserts and off highway routes are common. Plenty of mountain passes to deal with. Exploring off highway routes can involve long stretches of 1st and 2nd gear, so it's not exactly babied.
_________________
1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[Sodo]

Delvac looks good, exceeds GL5 requirements, directly specifies "for hypoid gears".
Ebay has it for $23/gallon free shipping and some FLAPS have it for $35,
can't complain.
On eBay it's costs less than my Valvoline.

OK so there's the 3rd/4th hub issue, moreso if your gearbox is 1989.5 or older.
Many crack, but not in every gearbox.
It's not clear what fatigues the hubs,
if it's a driving style (lugging), or other problems such as driving a worn-out gearbox
with a loose, wobbling mainshaft? Dunno.

In this world of 150hp engine conversions, I consider the WBX gearbox to be 'babied'.
Using 1st and 2nd gear is generally "babied" conditions too.

In your driveway, hold the RPM at 3400 for one full minute.
Don't worry, it's 'no load'.
Watch your clock, don't give up after 30 seconds.
This is hard to do.

Then consider that on the freeway...... that's what's going thru your gearbox for 4 hours of freeway driving.
How about 8 hours of freeway driving?
At the top of your engine's torque curve.
And you can't even do one minute of "no-load" in the driveway.
The point of this exercise is that "Freeway" is where your gearbox gives up it's lifetime.
On mtn passes at least you use 3rd at times.
The faster the worse because it's higher on the engine's torque curve.

====== A general PSA.... for the big-engine crowd =======

On the freeeway, do a 'decel' periodically (a genuine foot-OFF-gas) where you feel it decel for a few seconds. A little 'holding back'.
The gears shift position a little bit, allowing oil into a starved "problem area" on "4th gear".
Or neutral for 2 seconds is a little more certain to lube the area.
This is more of a problem with big engines that push real hard on 4th against headwinds, grades, and never let off or downshift.
Especially cruise control with a big engine.
GT gears is making straight-cut gears to combat this (big engine) problem.
Where this lubrication starvation 'goes away', but you have added 'gear noise'.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[AndyBees]

Sodo, I can't wait to break open my DK with over 85k since the rebuild over 10 years ago. As some know, I pulled a camper with it ....... on cruise too. I literally drug that ol' camper for more than 25k of those 85k miles.

Hopefully, by late February or early March I'll be pulling into my garage for some major work, including a transmission swap. I have another DK ready to install.

Give us a link on that Delvac in eBay.

Thanks for the many insights to these ol' tired transmissions.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[Sodo]

Andy I'm looking forward to your disassembly and observations.
We rarely get to see gearboxes that aren't just completely run-out, and obliterated.
And we never know the usage or the past maintenance, so this will be a treat.
If you were in the PNW I'd ask to visit for a peek.
Would be even cooler if there was an experienced gearbox builder on-hand but ya can't have everything.

Looks like a few folks have searched eBay for the $23.06 Delvac gallon perhaps asking the seller if it's a gallon.
I was busting my eye to read the "1 gallon" on the image.
I don't recall the '122044' but it could have been there, I was zooming eBay.
The watermark "image may not reflect actual quantity" was definitely NOT there a couple days ago.
If you search the partnumber (Mobil 122044) it's 1qt for $23. He knows people "search for Delvac Gallons".
Looks like he has a box of 4 qts and has sold two.

As I've written before I can't imagine how "we" would _know_ if it's any better, worse or even any different than another oil.
Beyond our faith in what Mobil prints.... "exceeds GL5, hypoid".
....likely true.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb