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88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

How about 180 plus whp out of a 1679cc engine???

Easiest way to get hp is put a turbo on it. The thick barrels will be somewhat tolerant of detonation.

It would be cheaper than a stroker...and probably more reliable.

I've been extracting hp out of my 1679 for 8 years........dynoed at 187 whp and 201 lb. ft. torque with mostly stock parts.




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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Dan Ruddock wrote:
Hell might as well go all the way and build a 1200cc 40hp with dp beads and 36 dells.
...……............…...…………………...…………………...……………...hay dan how about some thing like my old 40hp vee motor spencerfvee
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bugguy1967
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Pete Shattock's 260+HP 1776 is still streetable. He's fitted a shroud to it, as it's always been his goal to have a drivable track car. The first mouse 1600 was also road-worthy. Road-worthy, as in it didn't overheat, and could get from one place to the next.

100 HP/liter with a small engine should still give decent driving manners, as long as the gearing is suited for its' use.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

The definition of street-able is a moving target to say the least. To some it's the ability to get a few blocks to the car show or race track without a major incident mechanical or otherwise. To others it's the confidence that you can hand the keys to your grandmother so she can keep here Dr appointment in the next city without you taking unpaid time off work to drive her there.

Somewhere in between is your reality. The OP's goal of making it across town to a meet on the weekend should be pretty easy to attain today.

I am 100% with Clonebug on this one, build a basically solid stock engine and put a hair dryer on it. The best of both worlds for way less $$$!

But... the OP wanted nostalgia...
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Matthew
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:
I like the nostalgia idea, and it will be fun to drive, but it will be lacking power down low, and probably get old driving it pretty quick. It won't come on till about 3000rpm, but then it will be a bunch of fun. I am pretty sure the old drag cars you are reading about spent most all their time on the track. Are you planning more street time, or more track time?

I hate to say it, because I like the vintage, underdog, mouse, sweep the floor stuff............but the combo you listed would be WAY further ahead with 94mm cylinders, and nobody would know the difference from the outside. I like the old stuff, but I also like making it the best it can be for the least amount of $$, and some decent 94's wouldn't really add much to the cost of the total engine, but the outcome would be far more pleasant.

I think if you want to try the mini mouse time bomb thing, do it by spending as little $$ as possible. Stock crank, home ported heads, etc....

Brian

I get what you are saying here Brian and while I don’t disagree, adding 94’s and making it a 1915 is going down a different road. I am fascinated by the small, fast 16xx cc motors. I agree that it’s not the most cost effective or sensible thing but it is thrilling nonetheless.

In my example, I probably got too aggressive with the cam to be practical. Maybe a C45 or Web 163 with 1.25 or 1.3 rockers would tame it some.
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:
I'm collecting parts for a killer stock 1585 Very Happy. I want to see what I can do using nothing but stock parts and optimizing everything that I can.


ME LIKE
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

IMHO the 2288 is good choice
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

I have NOS blue box Cima/Mahle forged machine-in 88’s.
I also have a set of the AA thick wall 88’s bought a year or two after they were released.
What are the rpm limits for each?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Matthew wrote:
I have NOS blue box Cima/Mahle forged machine-in 88’s.
I also have a set of the AA thick wall 88’s bought a year or two after they were released.
What are the rpm limits for each?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….as many rpms your motor will go. depends on what cam you use . and what kind of valve springs you use. to reach the rpms you need . there is no rpm limit on both sets of 88s pistons. you want to use just my two cents spencerfvee
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BFB
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

didnt they used to sell de-stroked cranks for faster revving higher rpm engines?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

richardcraineum wrote:
didnt they used to sell de-stroked cranks for faster revving higher rpm engines?


You still can get them.

A shorter stroke will always rev faster than an longer stroke.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
Matthew wrote:
I have NOS blue box Cima/Mahle forged machine-in 88’s.
I also have a set of the AA thick wall 88’s bought a year or two after they were released.
What are the rpm limits for each?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….as many rpms your motor will go. depends on what cam you use . and what kind of valve springs you use. to reach the rpms you need . there is no rpm limit on both sets of 88s pistons. you want to use just my two cents spencerfvee

Well, there is. "Forged" Mahles, meaning the regular big bore kits, don΄t like to rev much higher than 7500.
With the standard AA΄s I use to say that if you regularly spin faster than approx 6800 you should go Mahle or better.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
spencerfvee wrote:
Matthew wrote:
I have NOS blue box Cima/Mahle forged machine-in 88’s.
I also have a set of the AA thick wall 88’s bought a year or two after they were released.
What are the rpm limits for each?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….as many rpms your motor will go. depends on what cam you use . and what kind of valve springs you use. to reach the rpms you need . there is no rpm limit on both sets of 88s pistons. you want to use just my two cents spencerfvee

Well, there is. "Forged" Mahles, meaning the regular big bore kits, don΄t like to rev much higher than 7500.
With the standard AA΄s I use to say that if you regularly spin faster than approx 6800 you should go Mahle or better.
…………………………………………………………………………………………...……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………...I disagree. I know a lot of buggy guys . drag racing guys and street racing guys. and hot street guys that take A and A s over 8,000 rpm all the time and they hold up . mahles are over rated .I am sure you would sell him a set of over priced mahles spencerfvee
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Just for the giggles I plotted a 1680 into the Analyzer and used flownumbers from a set of heads I did for a nippy 1904. The ports are somewhat "Panchito inspired" They flow 170 @ 0,600" & 25" and have 65 cc intake ports. They work very well on the 1904 and should work well on smaller displacment with more cam.
Anyway. CB 2288 cam installed on 104 ILC, above heads, 10-1 CR, 48 IDA΄s w. 33-37 venturies, 1½" merged header and phat boy muffler. I get 163 hp at 7000 rpm. with a power pulley and 175 Nm peak torque at 5700.
53 hp @ 3000
120 Nm torque @ 3000

Then I tried with twin spark and 11-1 CR since it is easy in the program
Interesting that it claims I only gain 1,5 hp at 3000 but 20 Nm torque, but now get 168 hp @ 7000 still on US 91 pump gas.

Bear in mind, these head flow numbers and design was made for a good street engine. If you go radical with more warrior inspired heads the engine will rev higher and have the possibility to pull even higher numbers, but will be less of a grocery getter.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Just for the giggles I plotted a 1680 into the Analyzer and used flownumbers from a set of heads I did for a nippy 1904. The ports are somewhat "Panchito inspired" They flow 170 @ 0,600" & 25" and have 65 cc intake ports. They work very well on the 1904 and should work well on smaller displacment with more cam.
Anyway. CB 2288 cam installed on 104 ILC, above heads, 10-1 CR, 48 IDA΄s w. 33-37 venturies, 1½" merged header and phat boy muffler. I get 163 hp at 7000 rpm. with a power pulley and 175 Nm peak torque at 5700.
53 hp @ 3000
120 Nm torque @ 3000

Then I tried with twin spark and 11-1 CR since it is easy in the program
Interesting that it claims I only gain 1,5 hp at 3000 but 20 Nm torque, but now get 168 hp @ 7000 still on US 91 pump gas.

Bear in mind, these head flow numbers and design was made for a good street engine. If you go radical with more warrior inspired heads the engine will rev higher and have the possibility to pull even higher numbers, but will be less of a grocery getter.


That’s awesome! I would be absolutely thrilled to break 160hp with a 88x69 1700. I see that it doesn’t make a bunch of power below 3000 but it does look drivable. I appreciate you running the numbers for me.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

First thing I think of.... is doing every possible trick to the heads, ports, valve job..... to "hold onto" all the low end you can, but....
How much "low end" a vehicle NEEDS to be easily drivable....depends a lot on the vehicle. A lot!

Putting a souped up small CC engine in a otherwise normal car, it's not a good match.
Torque and response in the 2500-3500 cruising range may be weak. Seems like it's always in the wrong gear, and most of the normal gear ratios aren't ideal for downshifting.

On the other hand.....

If you put it in a smaller/lighter vehicle, with moderately shorter/closer gear ratios, it'll drive like a dream.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

modok wrote:
First thing I think of.... is doing every possible trick to the heads, ports, valve job..... to "hold onto" all the low end you can, but....
How much "low end" a vehicle NEEDS to be easily drivable....depends a lot on the vehicle. A lot!

Putting a souped up small CC engine in a otherwise normal car, it's not a good match.
Torque and response in the 2500-3500 cruising range may be weak. Seems like it's always in the wrong gear, and most of the normal gear ratios aren't ideal for downshifting.

On the other hand.....

If you put it in a smaller/lighter vehicle, with moderately shorter/closer gear ratios, it'll drive like a dream.


The 65 in my a avatar, currently has a 4.12 with stock ratios. I have a 2017cc for it that is almost ready to fire up for break in.
I do have an Empi Imp that the 1700 could go in if the carbs clear the body.
Car needs restored so the transaxle could be built to suit.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

This was a high volume low pressure rotating assembly from Valero, stock crank, stock rods, lightened flywheel and the top end from he late Lenord (action vw). My favourite configuration out of all my low budget motors. Ran it in a light baja car (32 inch tires) with a single zenith on top of a short open, cast aluminum manifold. Great torque, and it screamed (6k). Amazing driveability, and durable.





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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:44 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

I wanted to build a nostalgia mouse motor for my car a few years ago. I still own the engine. It's not in a car at the moment. I ran it in a stock geared 69 bug. Stock gears with 27" firestone wide oval tires were not the ideal set up, but it is very street able. Very fun little motor. The combo I put together using readily available parts were as follows... (most parts are cb performance).
New aluminum autolina case.
C/W forged 69mm crank.
5.400" I beam rods. ARP bolts.
Forged 12 lb. Flywheel.
Equalizer pulley.
AA machine in top slip in bottom 88mm pistons.
Panchito heads, dual springs, only mods were to have the heads fly cut by cb performance to 40cc camber.
9.5:1 compression.
Engle 120 cam .
Cb 1.25:1 rockers. (Solid shafts).
Chrome Molly push rods.
Match ported short IDA manifolds.
48 IDA webers with 32mm ventures.
Csp linkage.

The only issue I had was/is that I didn't expect the little motor to make much more than 100hp. So I built it with a stock Sachs 200mm pressure plate. It still seems to hold the power but I am pretty sure the clutch is struggling to hold at WOT. So I have upgraded from stock Sachs Solid disc to a cb dual friction disc. I haven't ran the engine in another car yet, so I don't know how the dual friction disc will perform. If someone out there wants to replicate this engine, probably better to use a kennedy 1700 lb. Pressure plate! I estimate my little motor must be making 110 hp or so. Maybe 115 hp.

Fun little motor and a fun, but expensive experiment. I now have a bunch of parts collected for a street 2234cc. Definitely not trying to use a stock Pressure plate. Haha!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: 88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor Reply with quote

If you surface the flywheel, use a good stock disc w/springs and a decent stock pressure plate it should havebeen fine. may have glazed the flywheel and plate before they were broken in.
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