Schwenk vs Gowesty Springs for a Tin-Top

[gtxbullet]

TO those with TINTOP VANAGONS (not hightop or westfalia) that have felt and worked with both springs, which did you prefer for a smoother ride quality?

Im lifting 1.5-1.75 inches from current 17.25" at all 4 corners.
I have new Bilstein HD installed and all urethane bushings throughout.

GoWesty and Schwenk have been improving their springs every couple years.
Currently GoWesty Zero and 1.5" are manufactured by H&R, have a lifetime warranty and can be returned for any reason in the first 90 days (upon delivery). Yes, the older springs had issues, but haven't found much complaining about the H&R versions.

Schwenk have been making springs for decades and improving upon them when possible. All vendors list them with a Lifetime Warranty except VanCafe/RMW. I asjed why they don't state the warranty, they told me no one has anything close to a Lifetime Warranty on Vanagon springs. Odd.

[markswagen]

schwent all day every day.
l've fitted them on a dozen or more vanagons, tip top and westy's
GW springs on one, which l replaced a few months later with a set of schwenks.
because my customer didn't like them.
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markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.

619 201 0310

[0to60in6min]

I have Schwenk on my non lifted 2WD... very happy with them. I notice they raise the height about 1" compared to OEM.

[joetiger]

Schwenk. From being a Samba obsessive for twenty years, the knock on GoWesty springs seems to have always been longevity. There have been many stories about sagging over time. I don't think I've ever read a negative remark about Schwenks. I have set on my van and love them.
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Joe T.

'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32

"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron

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[ALIKA T3]

Schwenk too.
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[VdubVanner]

[Gnarlodious]

Years ago I put GoWesty “Progressive” springs on my tintop, big mistake. Way too stiff, terrible ride. Just one of my many disappointing GoWesty purchases. Unfortunately I had trashed my original springs so I had to scrounge some from a junker tintop. Which I am still running.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[iltis74]

I have a tin top syncro with all the fancy T3technique bushings, swaybar, schwenk springs, and the GoWesty Fox non-adjustable shocks, not because I'm cheap but because the odds of me ever adjusting a shock are about zero. It's really the only Vanagon I've been in that wasn't in dire, dire need of suspension work, so it's not like I truly have any basis for comparison, but the shop that did the engine swap said it was easily in the top 3 they'd ever been in, and there's not much they haven't done to a vanagon.
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65 Beetle
74 Thing
87 Syncro

[breakfastofvanagons]

When I first bought my van it had an extremely worn out suspension. Hitting a pothole on the freeway almost put me in the hospital as the van bounced and careened around wildly. Driving mountain roads and getting hit by cross winds were experiences that were beyond white knuckle driving and forced me to pull over and take a break from so much stress. I bought Gowesty wheels which did not change the ride that much. Then I put on the T3 Technique Heavy Duty anti-sway bar and suddenly I could feel my van holding it down in control in tight curves. That was a huge difference and I drove with just the T3 anti-swaybar and my worn out suspension with Gowesty wheels for many years. Then I spent months and months researching suspensions and reading about the inner workings of shocks and all the various types of springs from manufacturers and users especially on jeep forums. In the process I drove my girlfriend up the wall talking excitedly about suspensions which she is absolutely not interested in and its a wonder that she stuck around. After debating for way too long on which way to go and consulting as many parts sellers as possible I veered away from the “good ride” option in favor of the “performance” option in order to have better control in tricky situations.
I live in a coastal town surrounded by mountains and whenever I need to leave for a trip it involves going up and over steep hills with tight bends, some of which are so tight that the median cement barrier is streaked with the scrapes and skids of countless cars and trucks losing control and crashing or being crashed into. In the 1970s this road had no cement median and was aptly named “blood run alley” for the repetitive head on collisions that would occur. This road is my way out of town to go camping in my Westy and getting there and back safely, especially when loaded down with camping gear, was my goal. Van Cafe, Burley Motorsports and Christopher from T3 Technique all recommended the Schwenck springs for the ride quality and at the time the folks on the phone at Van Cafe recommended the XHD Bilstein shocks to go with them saying that they had really liked the overall combination of Schwenck springs and xhd shocks together. At the time Van Cafe sold both Schwenck and GoWesty springs and they had to the opportunity to compare both. From my experience VanCafe’s recommendations have always leaned on the truthful side and less on the biased side and their recommendation of Schwenck plus Bilstein XHD would not have been a bad option. If I had gone that route I would not have regretted it. Also at the time T3 Technique was selling adjustable Koni shocks that have to be removed from the van to be adjusted. I could not visualize myself going to the trouble of removing the shocks to adjust on a regular basis. T3 Technique now sells these sick shocks that you can adjust with a twist of the dial to make your ride perfect based on whatever load you are carrying. Those did not exist whe I rebuilt my suspension. However, looking at what Gowesty was offering a the time, especially when they released their Fox shocks for 2wd vanagon and reading about how great they were for off-road racing..... I had to do several double takes and whisper “off-road-racing” multiple times imagining myself skidding around dirt roads in Utah at top speed trying to accelerate in the dust to outmaneuver other competitors and clear a gap jump on the way to to the finish line... all in a vanagon.. Really? Racing in a vanagon on un paved roads? Like actually racing? Gowesty guys must be on shrooms or something to have made off road racing a a reality for these lurchy lunchboxes we drive around. So I had to read about their springs to see what they were doing since they offered off-road racing shocks and the springs to match. What I found out (to keep it as simple as possible) after reading multiple jeep forums on performance of different spring types is that you could call Gowesty springs “Quicky re-leveling springs”. I would call them that rather than getting lost in the debate over the attributes of progressive rate and dual rate springs. Gowesty springs are dual rate springs which have a specific purpose. In a curve with force moving outwards the upward force of the outer-curve springs is greater than any force on the inner-curve springs. The inner-curve springs are utilizing the top portion of the dual rate which is softer than the bottom portion. The outer-curve springs are utilizing the bottom portion which is more stout and has greater upward force to re-level the van. If you can visualize this then the benefits of dual rate springs will make sense. I tried to explain this to my girlfriend and needless to say, she did not enjoy the experience.

I read multiple forums of other vanagon owners getting upset seeing their new gowesty springs compress, assuming they were losing their bounce or thinking that they were faulty or poor quality.. The way these springs are designed is for a normal-weight or loaded down weight westfalia is that the top softer portion of the dual rate spring stays compressed at rest. That is normal and its how these springs work well. Jeep users debate the spring topic endlessly but the ones using Metal Cloak dual rate springs observe the same thing with top part of the spring being compressed at rest. Ford Mustang forums also have great debates over spring type but notice improvements in body-roll control when using dual rate springs. When you start driving lets say you enter a curve that goes right steering toward the right. This puts force laterally on the drivers side pushing down on the lower part, the stiffer part of the spring because the upper part is already compressed at rest. So the driver side of the van is pushing down on the stiffer portion of the springs while the passenger side of the van has a slightly upward force that is releasing the upper portion of the dual rate spring, but its the softer portion so the driver side spring can push harder against the passenger side spring. This results in less body roll, and rapidly re-levels the van. A linear spring would have equal forces up and down on both sides and would have slightly more body roll. Similarly on bumpy terrain the dual rate springs act on all sides to very rapidly keep the van as level as possible. A linear spring would be cushier and bouncier and would take longer to re-level, would be less jarring but a little more like a bouncy ball.

Since I installed these I have noticed that around tight bends and over wild bumpy terrain they do quickly re-level the van. The lower portion of the spring is stiff and handles weight and cargo very well. I bought these springs and found them to be amazing on hard curves and in spirited driving. I would not call them cushy and they do not provide the ride quality of a Cadillac. They instead provide rapid relief from buffeting insanely strong cross winds and they help the van dig into curves at high speed (high speeds for vanagons) providing minimal body roll. They are a little harsh. Things rattle in the van a little. It’s not that bad and when it comes to keeping the van level in all conditions I am very impressed. I did rebuild my entire suspension with urethane bushings from T3 Technique and the whole nine yards and the result compared to stock is night and day. I got Bilstein XHD shocks, not Fox Shocks, because they are more than good enough for where I am going. So for a cushier ride with good control anyone would be happy with Schwenck springs. For the ultimate in control which involves sacrificing some cush and Cadillac ride quality - that is where the Gowesty springs are good. For me the decision came from being nearly pushed off of cliffs multiple times by cross winds which are very strong out west. I opted for max control and I can feel it. The Schwenck ones would have been okay though, especially compared to worn out stock springs. I have not experienced sagging. That must have been earlier editions that Gowesty corrected. My goal has never been to race my van but rather to not die when hit with cross winds. Schwenck springs would have provided more comfort and greater travel and less likelihood of bottoming out. I chose the zero lift GoWesty springs to combat body roll from extreme cross winds that almost made me crash on more than one occasion. I would compare my relationship to the wind to someone that’s been crapped on by a bully and decides to start lifting weights to make sure that it never happens again (by rebuilding the entire suspension to be as wind resistant as possible). Most Vanagon owners will prefer Schwenck springs for a very long list of reasons, just like so many jeep and mustang owners prefer good quality linear springs for comfort, predictability, maximum range of spring travel, etc. I wanted to reduce body roll as much as possible and was aware that the ride would be a little harsher which seemed like a minor inconvenience compared to having the wind almost shove the van off a cliff or a high bridge or into a semi truck. I would have gone for lowering springs but wanted to still be able to get around on dirt roads so kept stock height which is as good as a 2wd pickup truck and works in most situations. I could lower the pressure in my reinforced sidewall tires to soften the ride, but keep them pretty firm to increase responsiveness and, again, to reduce body roll.
The original topic of this thread was about ride quality. Undoubtedly the Schwenck springs would provide better ride quality than the springs I chose. A majority of reputable part sellers recommend the Schwenck springs over GW springs and most vanagon owners would probably prefer the feel of the Schwenck and it is true that plenty of folks have bad experiences with Gowesty springs but nobody complains about Schwenck springs. Probably few 2wd vanagon owners get into extreme terrain and need to keep their springs seated under extreme articulation which is what GoWesty dual rate or Metal Cloak dual rate jeep springs would do. That staying seated benefit of dual rate springs is probably lost on a 2wd vanagon but good for a Syncro that gets a wheel lifted way off the ground on occasion. The anti body roll benefits of dual rate springs are applicable to these tall vans that catch winds like sails and experience more body roll and side to side motion than most vehicles. I threw everything I could at my van to combat side winds including T3 Techniques frame reinforcement kit that prevents flexing of the crossbar that the power steering rack is attached to. I have C rated tires but could choose D rating for more heavily reinforced sidewalls. I have stock height springs but could go lower but would then have trouble scraping on some dirt roads and entering or exiting some steep entrance ramps into parking lots. If I had a hightop van then those last 2 options would be strong considerations due to even greater body roll and wind-catching ability. I have yet to experience bottoming out with my dual rate springs but I mostly drive highways with just a little bit of dirt roads. If I drove more wild dirt roads then I would need Schwenck springs or Gowesty list springs to not bottom out so easily.
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1983.5 Westy named Vivian the Vanagon

[dobryan]

^^^ You may be able to get rid of some of the ride harshness by playing with tire pressures. When I ran my tires at near the max pressure the ride was definitely harsher than when I lowered it a few psi, but still enough pressure for the weight.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

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[Sodo]

Progressive springs are tuned for a pretty tight "weight range" and obviously there is MUCH less travel to work with.
It's something like "half of not much".
Straight weight springs will have a wider range.

And does the shock damping match the spring rate?
Damping probably matches the supple part of the spring, right?

When I read of 'GoWesty Progressive Springs sagging' I gotta wonder how many vans simply "gained weight"
in the time since install, fully compressing the supple segment, and now the van is just sitting lower, on the stiff portion of the coils.
And the shock damping (was matched to the supple part of the spring, which is now mashed) is thus irrelevant
as it cannot match the stiff portion.

Are there any reviews that document and confirm the van weight vs ride height?
Or the declining ride height ONLY?
Need both weight and height.

My van gets lighter when I clean it out.
Then it gets heavy for summertime long-distance trips.
Then it stays that way for 5 years.

These vans do NOT have much suspension travel to spare.
If you divide the travel into two segments (softer and stiffer) those segments have to be 'narrow'.
And if you vary the cargo in the van, you will mash the supple portion onto the stiff portion.
The van rides lower and rougher on the stiff portion.

Anectdotal comparisons of highly subjective subjects are not really sensible to evaluate.
You need two vans, that were equal before and one modified to really compare.
With all details noted, tire pressure too.
Bigger tires operate at lower pressures, but most people run them harder (for example)
as if the van is loaded to the tire's max weight capacity.

It takes a qualified test driver to elucidate suspension performance to a qualified technician -----> the realm of the successful race team.
It's a significant, technical process, with stated goals and vehicle usage.
That really narrows down the field. It's not anecdotal.

Probably can be done for a race-van.
And maybe somewhat, for a TinTop.
By definition it cannot work for a swiss-army-knife vehicle like a Westy.

Other than that---- you just change shocks, springs, tires and hope for the best.

I have OEM Westy Syncro springs spacered to at 19.5", and Fox Shocks and I like it.
But I've busted a couple OEM springs and may need to buy something new before too long.
That's all I know.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Mateo83]

GW progressive is pretty useless. The Fronts ride about 1/2" higher than advertised. The rears bottom out even with the bump stop removed.
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83 Air-cooled 2.0 Tin Top

[syncrodoka]

I see no advantage to using jeep suspension theory on vanagons as they are completely different vehicles with different suspension travel and different products offered.
If you were serious about race car ride then lowered springs and different shocks should have been your choice, your higher center of gravity with the progressive section of the spring in coil bind isn't doing you any favors.
I have been driving vanagons over the same passes and routes for decades and very regularly pass modern cars in the corners. Rebuilding the suspension alone would have been the dramatic improvement you are noting. Squishy radius rod bushings, control arm bushings and trailing arm bushings all contribute to a lot of wandering.
If you haven't already replaced the steering rack bushings with poly then you are missing out on a little more control. It is surprising how much the rubber bushings let the steering rack shift rather then immediately push the tie rods as they should, this lets the wind push you around as there's a lag on steering input.

[tjet]

I have Go Westy dual-rate progressive springs on my Tinton syncro. I like them, but they are the 1.5" lift versions. Also, they did settle about 1/2" lower after a couple of months. They ride smooth, but I also have 29" tall tires.

[heidi85ho]

Schwenck, hands down.
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85 westy-1.9-standard trans, FAS GenV 2.0

[rebelbrews]

Jumping in on this thread! I have an '88 GL with a EJ22 conversion and not a ton of weight inside (as compared to a Westy at least). Sounds like Schwenk springs are the ones for me and have to decide on shock option for the limited amount of off-road driving I do. Any input?

Also, for those who lifted a GL with 0" springs and an engine conversion, were the rear space pads necessary to level the ride?

Thanks in advance!

[MarkWard]

If the coils of a progressive rate spring are in bind at ride height, that is no longer a progressive rate spring. Someone did not do their corner weight calculations correctly. Sorry.

Sized correctly, the van would have the advantage of the softer ride in normal operating conditions i.e. riding down the highway because it is floating in the lower rate section of the spring.

When the surface conditions change, the softer section should “tighten” and the heavier section of spring starts doing the work.

Shocks should control the spring oscillations keeping the tire contact patch on the surface as much as possible.

My sense is the VW engineers figured out the correct rates for the Vanagon. If you need to increase ride height or lower it, using the stock spring rates for reference would be a good starting point. I’ve yet to see stock spring rates posted or aftermarket spring rates posted. It’s all about ride height, but is less important than actual spring rate.
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[fleetwood41]