| Author |
Message |
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34022
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
 Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
 |
|
| Bring back the 360! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Bring back the 360! |
Ha ha, that does look a vaguely familiar design 
Also do a search for Subaru Sambar VW - that might look quite familiar too, though on a tiny, tiny scale.
Scarily the modern UK Subaru lineup isn't far off that 360, performance-wise... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
That's fighting talk
|
They are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO popular around here and I had several friends and coworkers tell me how much they like them I decided I had to give them a shot. I've had 3 Outbacks in the last 2 years- a 2016 and two 2013s (H6 and the 2.5i.)
I REALLY wanted to like them, but their engineering and driver-related deign choices are just terrible. Absolutely HATED the eyesight system in my 2016, VERY intrusive to the way I wanted to drive. 2013 H6 was nice but got shit mileage. 2013 2.5i was the absolute worst oil burning CAT destroying piece of turd I've ever owned in my life. Worst, with that damn CEL on because of the CAT, I couldn't use cruise control. That's right, if your CEL comes on in your Subaru, it locks out cruise control. WTF kind of design is that
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| sb001 wrote: |
They are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO popular around here and I had several friends and coworkers tell me how much they like them I decided I had to give them a shot. I've had 3 Outbacks in the last 2 years- a 2016 and two 2013s (H6 and the 2.5i.)
I REALLY wanted to like them, but their engineering and driver-related deign choices are just terrible. Absolutely HATED the eyesight system in my 2016, VERY intrusive to the way I wanted to drive. 2013 H6 was nice but got shit mileage. 2013 2.5i was the absolute worst oil burning CAT destroying piece of turd I've ever owned in my life. Worst, with that damn CEL on because of the CAT, I couldn't use cruise control. That's right, if your CEL comes on in your Subaru, it locks out cruise control. WTF kind of design is that |
Heh, sounds a bit like the state we're in here in the UK, with all the safety stuff
CEL shutting down cruise control is common on this side of the pond whatever the make and makes sense in some ways - would be more sensible if it was related to the CEL code, but say you had some sort of throttle control issue and the cruise control kept causing the car to accelerate uncontrollably - could be v nasty indeed. Or an ABS issue. So shutting it down makes sense just in case.
Try a pre-2005 one if you can, if they're like the way they are in the UK they're a completely different car, and a worthy home to a flat 4. Would have another older one or a Japanese spec in a flash, but wouldn't touch a newer one myself |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
.
Try a pre-2005 one if you can, if they're like the way they are in the UK they're a completely different car, and a worthy home to a flat 4. |
Well I would except for- you know-- the head gasket issue that plagued every single NA 2.5i they made from 2000-2010. I've never seen another auto manufacturer where if you bought a particular engine you were GUARANTEED to have a head gasket failure. Yes, you can replace them with the turbo gasket version and apparently eliminate the issue, but I don't have the $2k to spend.
And more crappy gas mileage with those older versions.
Aside from the intrusive Eyesight system and the terrible sounding bass-heavy HK sound system, I actually liked the 2016 and kind of regret selling it. Got great gas mileage.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Who.Me?
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
Nicely back on topic. And now I'm going to ruin it 
In their ultimate wisdom Lotus decided the Rover 1.8 would be a great engine for their new Elise. They soon realized that wasn't such a smart idea.
| sb001 wrote: |
| I've never seen another auto manufacturer where if you bought a particular engine you were GUARANTEED to have a head gasket failure. |
Except for the relatively short-lived Gen 3 Legacy 2.5 we were spared the head gasket issue, by 2004 they'd made the engine much stronger, but it still didn't sell very well, mainly because it wasn't much more powerful than the 2.0, and wasn't much more economical than the 3.0 so didn't really serve a purpose. Note - we hadn't had a turbo Legacy (or Outback) since the early 1990s, and once Subaru UK stopped selling the 'hot' Imprezas, sales dwindled to almost nothing. Now they'd probably sell more cars if they made them out of cheese, most people like cheese 
BTW excluding the aircon, dropping an engine out of a Subaru isn't much more hassle than dropping one out of a Beetle (possibly less) and the general engine design should be familiar, so replacing the head gaskets isn't beyond DIY, the only tricky bit is setting up the quad-cam engines' timing belt once the heads have been off - it helps if you've got more than the usual quota of arms.
Last edited by mj2k on Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| - is your gut feeling about a car ever wrong? And if it is, would you admit it to yourself? |
no, but maybe someday, I could evolve |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| modok wrote: |
| mj2k wrote: |
| - is your gut feeling about a car ever wrong? And if it is, would you admit it to yourself? |
no, but maybe someday, I could evolve |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
Except for the relatively short-lived Gen 3 Legacy 2.5 we were spared the head gasket issue. |
Not sure how- it's the same EJ engine wherever the car was shipped and AFAIK the same cheap graphite coated head gaskets, unless for some wierd reason they decided to go with the multilayer steel turbo gasket in UK destined vehicles.
If I had a) the time, b) the tools, and c) another car to get me around then I might not mind trying to pull the engine on one of these. But you need all three of those things at bare minimum (the procedural knowledge and/ or experience would help too, but I'll substitute YT videos for that) and I don't. As someone else said in another forum I am a member of where a poster asked how easy it was to replace a timing belt, how "easy" something is is absolutely relative to all the things I mentioned above. And... if you get it wrong....
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| sb001 wrote: |
Not sure how- it's the same EJ engine wherever the car was shipped and AFAIK the same cheap graphite coated head gaskets, unless for some wierd reason they decided to go with the multilayer steel turbo gasket in UK destined vehicles.
If I had a) the time, b) the tools, and c) another car to get me around then I might not mind trying to pull the engine on one of these. But you need all three of those things at bare minimum (the procedural knowledge and/ or experience would help too, but I'll substitute YT videos for that) and I don't. As someone else said in another forum I am a member of where a poster asked how easy it was to replace a timing belt, how "easy" something is is absolutely relative to all the things I mentioned above. And... if you get it wrong.... |
Oops, sorry, only just noticed your reply 
Bit of a thread revival, but the UK and US Legacys are very different - Subaru has it's own factories in the USA but because they're very poor sellers in the UK (EU trade quotas, poor fuel economy and cheap European imports saw to that) and because we're right hand drive like Japan, all they basically do is detune low spec Japanese Subarus to work with our lower octane petrol, and stick them on a boat. Japan must have been quick to fix the 2.5 issue in their own market, and post-2004 2.5 Legacy head gasket issues are almost unheard of (though most of ours are either 2.0 or 3.0). Whereas Subaru America was very slow repsonding to that particular issue, and did the 2.5's reputation a lot of damage in the process.
As for experience / time - true enough, every car has it's issues which catch you out 'til you know them. I could get a stick shift Legacy engine out in a lunch time, but spent longer than that fiddling about trying to get the hook on the 'stat to engage with the heater flap mechanism on my 1600 twinport, whereas I bet most on here could do it straight off, first time without even swearing. Much. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| Operate on feelings ? Sounds like bullshit. Why not deal in facts? If you can’t verify something keep looking, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Operate on feelings ? Sounds like bullshit. Why not deal in facts? If you can’t verify something keep looking, |
That doesn't always work though - the facts on my current project sounded great - a decade-long retirement restoration which the PO had to abandon at the final hurdle and not reassemble because he was having health problems, a fat folder of receipts, a fresh paintjob on the restored bodyshell, a donor car for any parts I couldn't find in the boxes and only one obvious sign of welding needing to be done, despite the car being in bits and all obvious rust spots being easy to see. It even passed the magnet test, except on the lower rear quarter panels. Only thing it seemingly needed was bolt-on panels respraying, headlining finishing, and reassembly (it's the car in my signature picture).
Oh, and here's a pic of it after I'd finished throwing it back together, just before the MOT:
But my 'gut' said it was too good to be true so I held back on spending serious money on respraying the panels or any mechanical work 'til I'd put it through an MOT (UK roadworthiness test), and legally driven it a few miles on the road. And sure enough, underneath the shiny paintwork was a wonky patchwork of wobbly panels covered in Bondo, and as I later discovered, underneath those was this 
(that's the remains of the firewall / inner wing / Napoleon's hat in case you can't recognize the rusty shreds of metal; I reckon one good pot hole would have been enough to rip a front wheel off the pile of sh...iny paintwork)
As soon as it failed the MOT my gut (and common sense, and a hammer and chisel) said "time to break it and make your money back", but my wife insisted I repaired it. It turned out to be even worse than I suspected, and now I'm spending serious time / money trying to save it from the crusher. But an angry wife beats a gut feeling every time
Strangest part was, the PO was genuine - almost every area I'm having to redo was already restored. But the welding quality was so bad the welds snapped under not much more than finger pressure, and the multitude of Klokkerholm panels and too-thin metal patches weren't actually attached to anything much undeneath.
And the worrying part was this Super's old enough to be MOT exempt in the UK, so I could have skipped the test and legally drove it around in that state if I hadn't been so suspicious of it. Does make you wonder how many other 'restored' bugs are being driven about in a similar state in the UK... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Xevin
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7635
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
Sorry man. That’s a bummer. Cool looking car.
Link
_________________
Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd  |
| SGKent wrote: |
| My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| Xevin wrote: |
Sorry man. That’s a bummer. Cool looking car.
|
Lol, thanks, and I think you've just given me a good name for the Super if I ever get it properly roadworthy again - Devo
"I looked for silver linings, But you're rotten to the core"
The PO was really good at cosmetics even if his welding sucked, I doubt I'll ever get it looking quite as good, but at least I'll know it's properly held together. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| mj2k wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Operate on feelings ? Sounds like bullshit. Why not deal in facts? If you can’t verify something keep looking, |
That doesn't always work though - the facts on my current project sounded great - a decade-long retirement restoration which the PO had to abandon at the final hurdle and not reassemble because he was having health problems, a fat folder of receipts, a fresh paintjob on the restored bodyshell, a donor car for any parts I couldn't find in the boxes and only one obvious sign of welding needing to be done, despite the car being in bits and all obvious rust spots being easy to see. It even passed the magnet test, except on the lower rear quarter panels. Only thing it seemingly needed was bolt-on panels respraying, headlining finishing, and reassembly .. |
Man that is unfortunate. Sorry to see that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Man that is unfortunate. Sorry to see that. |
Well, at least it's given me a perfect signature, thanks to @Xevin 
_________________
"I looked for silver linings, But you're rotten to the core" - Devo: Gut Feeling (they must have seen my Super) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1432
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| Abscate wrote: |
| Quote: |
| new paintwork and metal, |
Any car sold with this, without before pictures, is a cosmetically adorned porcine unit.
Who does good bodywork without documenting before and after?
No one. |
I did most of a lifetime's worth of restorations prior to the proliferation of digital cameras. Thus, minimal "documentation".
You generally can't detect any repairs I've done anyway, not even in bare metal. That's the Gold Standard, baby!
You're telling me you can't weld and metal finish a seam so it's undetectable or close to it? That doesn't mean I can't.
I don't need my "gut" to detect crap repairs. I can generally spot BS the Carfax missed.
It only makes the Carfax if the body shop is playin' the Carfax "game".
.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mj2k
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2022
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Is a gut feeling about a car ever wrong? |
|
|
| Dusty1 wrote: |
I did most of a lifetime's worth of restorations prior to the proliferation of digital cameras. Thus, minimal "documentation".
You generally can't detect any repairs I've done anyway, not even in bare metal. That's the Gold Standard, baby!
You're telling me you can't weld and metal finish a seam so it's undetectable or close to it? That doesn't mean I can't.
I don't need my "gut" to detect crap repairs. I can generally spot BS the Carfax missed.
It only makes the Carfax if the body shop is playin' the Carfax "game".
.
. |
I know what you mean, most of my previous classic body restorations were done pre-2000, but that's where the similarity ends for me - my cosmetic work isn't so great so I can make a structurally sound repair to a visible panel look like a baked bean can held on with chewing gum and luck by the time I put a little bondo on it to cover the seam 
Whereas the guy who prev restored mine was superb with the cosmetics and had done the legwork, but something still smelled off to me.
Call it gut feeling, call it experience or call it a Spidey sense (but more useful because it saves your wallet from emptying), guess ultimately it's something you pick up as time goes on?
Still, even though I've spent almost as much on body panels as I did on the bug, and even though it's taken 6 months (and many more to come) longer than I hoped to get it roadworthy, at least I've got good seats, had boxes of spares, nice wheels, a fairly decent 1600 twinport engine (not perfect, but it looked great cosmetically  ), 2 gearboxes, a good roof panel, and the bodyshell had new floorpans and heater channels which seem to be welded on well. Though the floorpans are cheap Klokkerholms so I expect I'll be replacing them at some time, and have my fingers crossed they're not welded on so wonky they've distorted the body...
_________________
"I looked for silver linings, But you're rotten to the core" - Devo: Gut Feeling (they must have seen my Super) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steve244
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2022
Posts: 1668
Location: GA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
