BBT front fender problems

[mikeandkirsti]

BBT Split and Oval front fenders seem to continue suffering from serious issues that have not been fixed. I wonder why they are not dealt with, the fenders cost over 500€/ea. Many have fallen in this trap and have had problems especially fitting running boards. They will not fit unless either running boards or fenders are redone. Also, wiring conduits do not still fit.
Here is the problem:

Original fender and running board fit, fender rear part curved

BBT fender rear too straight; running board front end hits fender at the outer end while there is a big gap at the inner end:

[splitjunkie]

What type of weld nuts are there for the headlight screw? Square or the oval stamped sheet metal type? The first run had the square ones and the updated one have the oval ones.
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Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld

[mikeandkirsti]

I believe the nut has been fixed and many other issues.It is imperative to fix running boards before paint. I had to cut Virtanen boards to fit these fenders. Also for some reason the left fender had a gap at the front apron and a triangular strip of sheet metal had to fit after the fender was cut open. May not be an issue anymore however as these were first batch but running board issue remains in current production.

[esde]

Hey there, those are some of my pics..
I bought my fender from cip1, after looking high and low for an original fender with no luck. I had read the reviews and was willing to deal with the known issues, but the terrible shape where it meets the running board was not something I anticipated. I emailed BBT and the response questioned how original my car was, and if it had accident damage or previous repair. And I realized that it was entirely possible my car was the issue and not the fender. I compared the fender to several other known good original fenders, and even bolted it up to a known solid car. In the end, the BBT fender is the problem, not my car. My last email to BBT did not get a response, which I find insulting.
And here's the thing: I appreciate the high investment they made to do this, and I know without companies like BBT, Wolfparts, or Virtanen I would not be able to repair these cars. But for the price it should be perfect, and if it isn't perfect there should be a disclosure. They've recently started pimping the dies to stamp rear fenders on Facebook and Instagram, but hey, I'm not interested in spending money with them again.
I did also have to fix the front flange next to the headlight. That was a head scratcher but easy once I figured it out. And since then I've figured out how to maybe "fix" the bulge on the rear end. I'd rather fix that then the running board, because the running board is supposed to have the angle. And, if I change the running board then I have to modify the cover too..
Bleh.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[lardawge]

[mikeandkirsti]

[bob1]

Dear all

Thanks for these remarks.
We @ BBT take all comments serious,

But we are just humans... try to make the VW parts world a better place as we found it, we're not God and can't do magic. We try hard to make better parts, and make our own parts better though...

Since introduction of the fenders, we had several issues taken care for. Mainly small cut outs, details, corners, lines etc. etc... also we found out that oval and split have different nuts to hold headlight ring so we made them different on our fenders too.

These modifications started all as comments, constructive feedback, and been taking care for in the most serious way possible.

Several complaints we get are indeed that our fender is too short or too long, but as we started the test fit tools from NOS inner fenders the general dimensions as length or height are simply impossible to be different. Our fenders are made on cast tooling, in 8 different steps, making every fender 100% the same, no exceptions. Many satisfied customers testimonies this.

Fitting around the running board is something we just heard recently. We do investigate as we speak. Sold so many without this complaint we must determine the problem, if it is a certain production error neither tooling problem, or whatever but address this better if necessary. If it was always this case we should have got earlier complaints,

So far I checked 10 cars and must say they're ALL different, so my hunt is on for a 100% original fender with NO damage to check this. We will need a wood or cardboard cutout right over the hole for the running board, in case somebody can help? All help is very much appreciated and the only way to create a better product! We will not need one, but several cardboard forms to compare.

The problem is that we can change everything, but we need to know what’s right from the first time. We can’t return once modified, its cast tooling…. I think everybody can understand the price of the investment has to be justified.

We continuously try to improve our product and listen to everybody.

Constructive feedback builds a better VW world.

If an email should have left unanswered we do apologize, that is NOT our way of working.

Let's work on a better VW world all together!
Thank you.

[vwhelmot]

The horn grill hole was stamped out wrong on one of my Oval era wings. It seems i`m not the only one to have this issue. All i was told was that they knew of the problem and my wing was from a first batch. I didn`t notice until i had painted the panel because i never questioned or studied it closely. I didn`t even get a sorry from them.

[lardawge]

[Käfer2]

Hello Bob,

Grüße aus Deutschland.

[esde]

For consideration, my fender is one of the later pressings, after some improvements had been made. This was confirmed by cip1, who also reminded me about the fine print: "We cannot guarantee the BBT fenders will match you 75 year old fender.
This will not be an acceptable reason for return."
Since I first posted about this issue, I have emailed with other people that have bought BBT fenders that did not have this problem. So perhaps it is a problem isolated to a particular production run, or even just an occasional issue stamping that wasn't caught by QC. I get that, mistakes happen and we are only human.
But, at no point did cip1 (I didn't expect them to) or BBT offer any path forward to a solution. When you are marketing something as a "perfect reproduction fender" you cannot send out less than perfect, especially at that price. At least thats my opinion. I am curious if the original poster did contact BBT and what the response was.
bob1, your response is appreciated. I would look forward to resolving this issue if that was possible. You can email or PM me through the site
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[bob1]

thanks for all comments,

all that's written we take into consideration and will be investigated, unfortunately i do not have time to write every little step we take,

for the horn grill we adjusted laser cutting program for the next production run.

wire tube position we made on a jig as good as we could, but will always need some adjustment.

gap between running board we discuss with the factory now what went wrong where, because seems that was not on all fenders. We will working on this.

I await final result of teh investigation to see if we need templates or not.

first factory will see if they can find back the original fenders I send them... some parts do not survive the reverse engineering process...

will be continued....

all other concerns please send me on [email protected]

Thank you

[DSweinhagen]

I was recently planning on getting a pair of these for my '51 standard and talked to a friend locally that had the same issue with the running boards. He said you could almost fit your hand in the gap and that the flared pressing there wasn't right. I went to the thread here and the pressing looked good and didn't see anyone mentioning that issue?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=748155&highlight=fender

Until esde's post a month or so ago and have been meaning to follow up to see what he figured out. So I'll be following along here to see how this turns out.
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David S

[bob1]

As promised, I come back to this topic after some digging and testing….

First, we pulled data from the factory initial reverse engineering. Initially they took dimensions from 5 different original fenders, off course all have been different, one more as the other, as usual we take the middle way, how we think of how it should be, we take about minor differences in millimeters, not inches!… reverse engineering is always a challenging issue…

Factory pulled all production records as well. They log everything. They assured me they never changed anything on the lower end of the fender during the different productions.

The factory only makes metal parts for classic cars, nothing cheap reproduction repair metal but quality restoration panels. All on 3 pc deep draw press tooling’s. Giving a job to 250 employees every day at a serious salary. This to attract skilled craftsman. I do visit regularly to check on production processes, they make all of our Silver Weld Through bus panels too. They know what they talk about, they don’t do anything else for the last 40 years.

Secondly we pulled fenders from all different productions we had, and lined them all up, tested them with a profiler, upper and lower radius, on the “bulge”. Found out all productions have the same bulge…

Our fenders are made on cast tooling they’re all the same, without exception, no other way possible. But as said before I take any complaint as constructive feedback serious, we never know everything…. that is why we tested again….

From the profiler we made templates from the exact radius in cardboard. We had to make cardboard templates as we cannot test the profiler on a car off course as it sticks over…The templates we tested on several of my original cars, upper and lower the running boards.

We checked on some very original cars whereunder my 1949 split original paint, my 1952 convertible original paint, my 51 split sedan standing since 1959 but also a Hebmuller we recently sold, and some other splits down the road. Anybody ever visited me can testimony my collection has some very original cars.

I tested together with my panel guy. Tons of knowledge and experience in metal shaping, building complete bodies from scratch. He help me with testing and development parts because he used to work 15 years for me before venturing on his own.

The result of our test is that our fenders are any good as all original fenders we tested, you can see on pictures below.

Most problem we see or hear is mainly problems of the inner fenders. Reworked or damaged, from old collision, rust repair or over use. An early beetle didn’t need a large impact on the bumper to deform inner fenders. Deformed inner fenders will always give problems to mount a fender. And yes, that does matter…

Hope to show with this reply we’re not hiding away, but are proud on the product we make. That said we don’t force anybody to buy our product. If you feel better with a completely welded original fender that’s fine too. Everybody has his own taste of originality. We only try to bring a good alternative to the market.

Classic Volkswagens are a beautiful hobby and we only try to make it more enjoyable.

Thanks for reading and keep the faith, the VW faith!

[mikeandkirsti]

I do not think the above explanation solves the problem. Yes, it proves that likely the bulge is the correct shape. It does not, however, address the root of the problem, the bulge is in the wrong angle and therefore running boards do not fit. This is very evident in all of the above photos. The Azur Blau 1951 car above has 27 000 original kilometers, never hit, fenders never off the car and the angle is totally different. The running boards fit like a glove.

If the original fender was measured so that it was not attached to an undamaged or NOS inner fender or a jig in the correct position during the 3D scanning process, this distortion very easily occurs as the fender is flexible. There is no easy way to fix it as the massive steel molds are what they are, so the running boards need to be reworked to accomodate the wrong angle.

While this problem remains along with the wire tube, the fenders are not bad at all. The early wheel arch for one is excellent as is the overall finish.

[esde]

Bob,
I do appreciate your emails and the time you took trying to solve this problem. I have also spent many hours swapping fenders from car to car, trying to figure out how to fix it. I have bolted three different original fenders to my car, and all of them fit without any of the issues this BBT fender has. And I have bolted this BBT fender to a 55, my 57, and my 61. The problem follows the fender, to some degree all 3 other cars had the same running board angle problem when this fender was mounted. And the issue is not the bulge on the back, though that is where we were looking. But it has to do with the mounting flange; as when the fender is hung loosely, the angle is close to correct. But as the forward two and rear 3 bolts get pulled tight, it puts some tension into the fender that causes that rear end to flex out of shape. Which is a shame, because aside from this problem the fender is beautiful.
You claim that " making every fender 100% the same, no exceptions."
But then how do you account for the wrinkle in the fender flange, which I sent you a picture of?

It's not super visible in that pic, but you can see it here between the 2nd and 3rd bolt hole.

How can you see that and say that they are all exactly the same? This was enough of a wrinkle to keep the fender from sitting nicely, and too much to hammer flat, so I had to cut it out. I've since suspected that this wasn't the only problem, just the one I found. It certainly makes more sense than all 4 cars I've mounted this fender on having the same problem, right?
I'm not any expert in production sheetmetal stamping, but I have enough experience with steel to know there will be wrinkles and stretching that you cannot predict, especially at the outer edges of the stamping dies. On a flat hood or shallow fender you might get close to 100% good parts, but on a complex compound curve like a beetle fender, I think you're going to have some defective parts here and there.
Anyway, at this point we've decided to make a few relief cuts in the fender so it will not be under tension when it's mounted, and then weld it back together. Probably what I should've done in the first place..
_________________
modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[pastellgreen]

[Dusty1]

Veteran of Chrysler here.

Anyone who has problems with reissue parts should try to manufacture their own.

There is a lot of "magic" to heavy pressing and large format dies. Dies are expensive. Modifying dies is expensive.


Anytime anything looks easy try it yourself one hundred times. After a hundred repetitions it will either be easy (er) or you will know better.

.
.

[aa390392]

[Lind]

Is there anything better?

Are there any reproduction metal parts that fit perfectly?
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