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G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT
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marco_lh
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Joined: December 28, 2011
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Location: Montreal, Qc, Canada
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:18 pm    Post subject: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Hi All!


CONTEXT
In 2018 I started the development of a kit to fit a Porsche 911 C4 2003 (996) transmission (G96.31) into my Vanagon with a TDI engine (AHU).
The development of this kit was caused by the simple fact I did not have sufficient budget to properly rebuild my 091 DK transmission to withstand the torque of a TDI engine.
After a couple input bearing replacement, I felt it was time to focus my energy on a more durable alternative.... a Porsche transmission !!

After reviewing the existing Thesamba threads, I realized the G96 would be a good candidate, but modifying the transaxle bellhousing to such extend was out of reach for me and for most people.
This is where came the idea of developing a kit involving minimal modification to the transaxle only.


EARLY DEVELOPMENT

ADAPTER
Late 2018 I CAD'ed the G96.31 transmission and TDI engine. I focused my CAD on the bolt pattern and interfaces only.
I found a bolt pattern similar to the G96 on an obscure website onto which I based my first adapter. I then validated / adapted the bolt pattern based on measurement done with a vernier.
As for the TDI side, I used the well known TDI industrial bolt pattern.
As the the orientation between the transmission and the motor, I considered 56º as per info found in other forums. This was a huge mistake. More on that later.

You would understand at this point I did not have access to a CMM or other precision measuring equipment.
Freshly out of engineering school, I was on a VERY limited budget, so a billed machined adapter plate was out of reach.

However, I still needed to achieve 0.003" MAX alignment between the motor and transmission.
In order to achieve such tolerance without speciality equipment, my approach was to divide the adapter plate in at least 2 layers and manually align both using a dial gauge and fix the layers together (bolt + tack welds).
I ended up using 3 layers, allowing the use of M6 socket heads screws to clamp the layers together and be able to bury the head into the adapter.
Each layers are 1/4" steel laser cut and cost around 17$ CAD in 2019 (crazy cheap, yes !)


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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CLUTCH
For the clutch, the idea was to find a friction disc with the correct spline for the G96, but with a external diameter of 228mm. After several hours of reading various forums, I found that a Porsche 944 would be a good candidate, but very expensive. Further reading pointed my toward a Ford Bronco friction disc as a good enough alternative used by the 944 guys. Sach p/n 1878 654 587. Disclaimer: Although this friction disc does fit, the splines are NOT a perfect match as the pitch diameter feels larger than the G96 spline pitch diameter.

For the flywheel and Pressure plate, I used a solid mass conversion kit for a VW 1.8T . M-PACT 02030
The Ford Friction disc being thicker than the 1.8T disc, I developed spacers to fit between the flywheel and PP. The idea is to compensate the extra thickness and still ensuring a proper clutch disengagement.

Since I had NO intention whatsoever to mill down the G96 bellhousing, I developed an adapter to move the flywheel 0.75" apart from engine.
The pilot bearing is also hosted in this adapter. Tolerancing of this adapter were critical and very minimal.
Lucky enough, I had a friend to machine this part for free at the University's machine shop !

The slave cylinder, arm and bearing are G96 original.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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STARTER MOTOR
I used the original Porsche 996 starter, the SR0808 1.7kW.
Beware of the SR0430 starter motor. It is often shown as inter compatible, but this starter is only 1.4kW and may not be enough to start the TDI at winter time.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



SHIFTER
Nothing developed at this point.

AXLE
Nothing developed at this point.


At this point in time, we were around spring 2019 and I needed to get my van moving for the summer.
I then decided to change my 091 DK input shaft bearing and drop the kit G96 to TDI project.
2 years passed with no development.


[LATE DEVELOPMENT]
Spring 2021 my 091 DK input bearing started whining again... this time I really had no intention to reopen this transmission again and a full rebuild was still out of reach.
Back again on the G96 to TDI project !!
Note that at this point in time, I still had no garage and I developed the whole project in my Montreal apartment...!

SHIFTER:
After several attempt to develop my own shifter using spherical bearings and tie-rods, I was never satisfied on the simplicity and robustness of my concepts.
I then found a shifter used on some autobus or trucks in other markets : HGS 923.
https://www.mechanical-controlcable.com/quality-12...ar-shifter

I developed my own bracket set in order to hide the shifter under the floor (spare tire does NOT fit anymore)
I used a Eurovan shifter cover and a steel tubing bent to shape as for the shifter rod.
The shifter knob is from a Hyundai.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



AXLE ADAPTERS:
I still have the original German axles on the van, which are still in good shape due to proper maintenance and by the fact the van spent most of its life with a 1.6 NA diesel engine...! Not much torque to wear axles !
The G96 being narrower than the 091 transmission, the use of spacers was the easiest option.
I did FEA analysis on the adapter and decided to use 0.40% carbon steel. 4340 was used as it was available at my cousin's machine shop.

ENGINE MOUNT
Since the G96.31 (4wd) transmission is longer and thicker than the Vanagon transaxle, I had to move the powerpack rearward and downward.
I used original Syncro diesel carrier bars bought from Brickwerks.


TRANSAXLE MOUNT
Since I had no confidence where the nose of the transmission would end up exactly in the van, I developed a multi position transmission mount.


PROTOTYPE ASSEMBLY:
As mentioned before, I do not have the luxury of having a garage yet.
However, I had the opportunity to borrow my father's garage for 9 consecutive days.
The idea was to drive 2 hours from Montreal with all my parts in the van and drive back the next weekend with the G96 transmission under the van..!
This is where the challenge began !

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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What went well:
The transmission and motor were still aligned
The transmission fitted under the van without the need of cutting the cross-member.
The clutch pack was perfect.
Shifter fitted as planned with minor modification to the bracket.

What went wrong:
Incorrect motor orientation. I previously assumed the correct motor inclination was 56º. This is not true. Correct inclination is 50º. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
Starter motor did not fit due to a mistake in the CAD and my absence of test with an actual engine (I had no access to a garage). I manually modified the adapter.
Shifting pattern was reversed and too long. (I modified the shifting arms on the transmission. Easy peezy.


After 7 days of hard work, I was ready for a test drive.
Here are my observations:
Motor is much quieter due to lower RPM.
1st gear is a bit long, but OK since I do not intend to do off-roading much.
The van is so fast!!! 120 km/h feels like nothing. I could reach 150km/h.
Axle adapters were throwing grease due to poor design. I 3D print (in ASA) some kind of grease retainer. More details upon request.


3 YEARS REVIEW:
It's been 3 years and about 50K km since I converted the van to a G96 transmission and still pleased with the result.
The transmission and kit has proved its reliability and robustness.
The only small caveat I had is with the shifter rod that broke on me once! Thicker steel was used and it appears to be OK for now.


I would be more than happy to share the CAD, 2D drawings and all the information to this community.
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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

More pictures:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP71zNf8cGhNw...lteF9qUU13
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Wellington
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Amazing.
My first thoughts were the TDI would not develop the HP required for the 996 transmission, but you seem to have proven otherwise.
Nice execution.
Care to share who did the laser cutting for you?
I'm in Montreal and am always looking for resources.

I see a few parts missing, or that is in the future.....
prop shaft and front differential, Laughing
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

I’m impressed. Nicely executed. Thank you for sharing. Mark
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Wow! Great concept and you did it! Very Happy
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Bravo, Mr Marco, you are #notafraidofit!
Quote:
Back again on the G96 to TDI project !!
Note that at this point in time, I still had no garage and I developed the whole project in my Montreal apartment...!

Quote:
PROTOTYPE ASSEMBLY:
As mentioned before, I do not have the luxury of having a garage yet.
However, I had the opportunity to borrow my father's garage for 9 consecutive days.
The idea was to drive 2 hours from Montreal with all my parts in the van and drive back the next weekend with the G96 transmission under the van..!


So, it looks like you drove the van after 7 days?
After 7 days you drove it home to Montreal?

Quote:
The transmission fitted under the van without the need of cutting the cross-member.

I am a little surprised by this, the gearbox looks much longer.
(I think I would cut the crossmember...)
How far rearward did you have to move the powerpack?
And the CV axle position is OK?

Quote:
1st gear is a bit long, but OK since I do not intend to do off-roading much.

What is your 1st gear and R&P ratio? (Vanagon = 3.78 and 4.86)

I have another strange question......on this 911, was there a large electrical ground cable at the front of the gearbox? Rolling Eyes
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Wellington wrote:
Amazing.
My first thoughts were the TDI would not develop the HP required for the 996 transmission, but you seem to have proven otherwise.
Nice execution.
Care to share who did the laser cutting for you?
I'm in Montreal and am always looking for resources.

I see a few parts missing, or that is in the future.....
prop shaft and front differential, Laughing



Intense Laser in Terrebonne. The company is closed now. I guess they did not charge enough Wink

You are correct, I keep the prop shaft and differential for a future project. The project is still a secret, but I can tell you I won't be using a Vanagon front end.
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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Bravo, Mr Marco, you are #notafraidofit!
Quote:
Back again on the G96 to TDI project !!
Note that at this point in time, I still had no garage and I developed the whole project in my Montreal apartment...!

Quote:
PROTOTYPE ASSEMBLY:
As mentioned before, I do not have the luxury of having a garage yet.
However, I had the opportunity to borrow my father's garage for 9 consecutive days.
The idea was to drive 2 hours from Montreal with all my parts in the van and drive back the next weekend with the G96 transmission under the van..!


So, it looks like you drove the van after 7 days?
After 7 days you drove it home to Montreal?

Quote:
The transmission fitted under the van without the need of cutting the cross-member.

I am a little surprised by this, the gearbox looks much longer.
(I think I would cut the crossmember...)
How far rearward did you have to move the powerpack?
And the CV axle position is OK?

Quote:
1st gear is a bit long, but OK since I do not intend to do off-roading much.

What is your 1st gear and R&P ratio? (Vanagon = 3.78 and 4.86)

I have another strange question......on this 911, was there a large electrical ground cable at the front of the gearbox? Rolling Eyes



Yes sir I did drive the van home at the end of the week! From Montreal to Bromont where I live (2.5 hours)
I can't express how stoke I was !

1st gear is 3.82 with a 3.44 R&P.
It's a bit long, but I still manage to haul a 2500 lbs trailer with no problem.
I am a bit stressed in hill starts, but the clutch hasn't burn yet...! Good enough I guess.
https://www.gboxweb.com/996specs.html


I did not see the transaxle installed in the 911. I bought the transaxle out of the car in Ontario back in 2018. I kept the original ground strap from the Vanagon.
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

marco_lh wrote:
I kept the original ground strap from the Vanagon.


"The Doctor will be with you shortly......"
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60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

I was asked to provide more details on the Axle adapters and the front transmission mount. Here it is:


AXLE ADAPTER:
As mentioned previously, I kept the original T3 axles and used spacers / adapters to compensate the narrower transmission and adapt the bolt patterns.
The 996 uses M10 screws along with a larger BC than the T3.
I felt good about keeping the original T3 M8 x 106mm BC since it has resisted the torque of a TDI for many years without any issues. There is no reason to believe a higher output torque would be applied to the axle using this transaxle.

The first iteration of the adapter used countersink M10 screws.
It was a mistake.
Although is provides a greater resistance based on the FEA results due to lessen stress concentration, it over fixes the adapter to the yoke and if the screws are not perfectly aligned they may even resist less than low profile socket head screws. In order to respect isostatics principles, an adapter should be concentrically located by its center and clamped using screws.
Moreover, the first iteration throws grease due to centrifugal force because the countersunk holes would communicate with the adapter OD.
See how I resolved the issue using a grease retainer.
See the next iteration that would resolve the issue and still resist the load cases.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




TRANSMISSION MOUNT
Since I did not had the luxury of testing how the transmission would fit under the van before I actually went to complete the swap, I had to develop a transmission mount that would provide a great variation in positioning. I ended up with a series of slots, allowing a variation in position of about 1.5" in both forward and upward direction.

This mount was totally Frankenstein'ed when I realized the orientation error. I had to cut it and reweld to twist it about 3º in order to divide the 6º mistake between the engine mounts and the transmission mounts.


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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

DanHoug wrote:
marco_lh wrote:
I kept the original ground strap from the Vanagon.


"The Doctor will be with you shortly......"


Why's that? Please educate me.

Clarification: I used the same ground strap style, but replace with a new wire of course! The 40 y.o. ground strap was ready for its retirement.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

marco_lh wrote:
DanHoug wrote:
marco_lh wrote:
I kept the original ground strap from the Vanagon.


"The Doctor will be with you shortly......"


Why's that? Please educate me.

Clarification: I used the same ground strap style, but replace with a new wire of course! The 40 y.o. ground strap was ready for its retirement.


Just wondering if Porsche grounds the far end of the gearbox too.
This G96 gearbox is a little different - if the starter ground current is routed case to case to the gearbox front,
there's not as many series connections outdoors (which risk the gearbox internals as the gearbox ages)
    1) Starter to bellhousing
    2) bellhousing to case 1
    3) case1 to case2


Starter current being the highest amperage spike on the entire vehicle. (100 amps?)
The better method being to isolate the gearbox from electricity,
and use a copper cable to route the starter current directly to the chassis.

Routing 100 amps "anywhere near bearings" is just foolish (...after some years outdoors).
Vanagon has "about 7" series connections between the starter and the chassis. At some point the electricity will choose the shiny internal shafts, erode the bearings, and then you have..... a gearbox rebuild that did not last very long.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
marco_lh wrote:
DanHoug wrote:
marco_lh wrote:
I kept the original ground strap from the Vanagon.


"The Doctor will be with you shortly......"


Why's that? Please educate me.

Clarification: I used the same ground strap style, but replace with a new wire of course! The 40 y.o. ground strap was ready for its retirement.


Just wondering if Porsche grounds the far end of the gearbox too.
This G96 gearbox is a little different - if the starter ground goes across the gearbox to the front,
there's not as many series connections outdoors (which risk the gearbox internals as the gearbox ages)
    1) Starter to bellhousing
    2) bellhousing to case 1
    3) case1 to case2



These are valid points!
Note that the starter now mounts directly to the steel engine to adapter.
The engine is grounded via its own ground strap.
The forward transaxle ground strap is in addition to the engine grounds.

I would not rely solely on the forward ground strap, of course, but I think it would be a mistake to electrically insulate the transmission from the van.

What do you think?
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

marco_lh wrote:
I would not rely solely on the forward ground strap, of course, but I think it would be a mistake to electrically insulate the transmission from the van.

What do you think?


Isolate (protect) the transmission from any electricity, ever. It should be a dead-end, never again beckoning a single amp.
Put a 100A cable from the starter direct to the chassis.
And it makes equal sense to put a direct cable from the alternator to chassis.
Those are your two largest electric machines.
Everything else is "peanuts".

One guy suggested that the Alternator ground could be 100A size to function as "backup starter ground".
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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vanis13
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

marco_lh wrote:
I would not rely solely on the forward ground strap, of course, but I think it would be a mistake to electrically insulate the transmission from the van.

What do you think?


I think setting it up so that the current path is (likely) though non-bearing areas. That gives the best chance that current is not going through the bearings.

Grounding the case at eh starter mount keeps the current (mostly) there.

Having the nose cone ground strap REQUIRES the starter current to make it to the nose cone of the transmission...Will it go through case or through bearings, it all depends on path of least resistance.

Having the round strap at the starter close to the incoming current helps a number of things and removing the nosecone ground strap minimizes the chance the current through the transmission.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

vanis13 wrote:
removing the nosecone ground strap minimizes the chance the current through the transmission.


eliminates the chance

Isolation is best. And it's easy, $15

You may have noticed the reverse lights switch (for example) does not ground to the case.
It is isolated (properly).
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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marco_lh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Agreed !
Path of least resistance should Never pass through the bearings.
Same logic applies when welding assemblies containing bearings.

I'll be adding a ground strap directly from the starter. It's a good idea. I can't believe I did not think of it before!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

marco_lh wrote:
. I can't believe I did not think of it before!


You are not alone. It's hiding in plain sight.
An entire starter motor industry has arisen to serve this problem, (slow starter)
without considering the “whole” of the 100A circuit, the new starter can't put out its power either.
Without the complete circuit you have “nothing”. (Or perhaps partial, or intermittent, or slow starter).
Everyone knows this (but....).

Well this is the simplest and perhaps the only $15 part of your amazing project.
But wait... you had some $17 parts Question
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Sat Nov 16, 2024 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

Wow! That's impressive.

Quote:

This is where the challenge began !


I figured the challenge began a few years earlier, like where you were trying to build the adapter to achieve .003 tolerance. Laughing

Superb.
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Butcher wrote:
This is the main fault with DIY'ers, they get together on these forums and pat themselves on their backs spreading bad information.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro).
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7196
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
ALIKA T3 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: G96.31 transaxle adapter kit to TDI @ 50º - OPEN SOURCE PROJECT Reply with quote

I followed the link you posted on Facebook, thank you so much for sharing!

This is a great build thread and so interesting!

For your axle adapters, how thick are they?
When I did my Renault/ZF UN1 transmission swap, I used 108mm drive flanges from a DeLorean, and found out the Eurovan T4 cv joints up to 07/1994 are 108mm with 33 splines like the T3 Vanagon.

On one side I used a Porsche 996? I forgot, 15mm spacer, longer bolts and it was all plug and play with the Vanagon axle shafts. Food for thought Wink
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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