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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52277
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 Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| mjfimages wrote: |
Final thought: Wasn't part of the attraction of full synthetic that you could lengthen time between oil changes? If one could change at 7500 or even 10K with a true synth like Redline then the xtra cost of the stuff would just about make it a wash $-wise. If it doesn't break down as easily under high temps., right? Why does go westy still recommend very short change intervals?
Sorry so long! |
I ran Mobile 1 in the original engine in my '91 and changed it annually, which meant it had between 25K and 35K miles on it when changed. I had it tested a few times and it always tested out fine. The engine lasted for 180k miles until I took it out of service due to rod bolt stretch which had zero to do with what oil was used. Actually had I been running a thicker oil I might have missed the signs of the rod bolts stretching and ended up blowing the engine up as was all to common with the factory 2.1L engines. |
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mjfimages
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2021
Posts: 2
Location: FL
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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I know it's an old topic on here but it's timely for me. I'm at about 700 miles breaking in a new 2.2L in my '87 Westy. Previous engine I ran Rotella 15w40 or Castrol 20w50 depending on season and changed every 4-5k, no issues. But now I'm starting to think maybe switch to synthetic after I'm mostly broke in.
I have a friend who's an oil consultant who said it would be fine to keep running Rotella T4 (15w40), even though I live in a hot climate now - FL. Says the Zn level is good and it's viscosity is enhanced. Also says 20w50 is ok too but he would use an additive like Cleanboost EMT (which is a Zn substitute - he says don't use Zn additives since they don't remain in suspension well).
Then there's Go Westy for what it's worth, who recommend regular 20w50 of any kind until oil consumption stabilizes (and/or 10K miles - sorta confusing there), then switch to synthetic, they recommend Redline 10w60.
I'm tempted to just stick to conventional either Castrol gtx 20w50 w/Cleanboost or good old Rotella T4 plus a new Mahle every 5K or so. This latter would be the cheapest. But I put a lot into this new motor (a Rocky J by the way)
Final thought: Wasn't part of the attraction of full synthetic that you could lengthen time between oil changes? If one could change at 7500 or even 10K with a true synth like Redline then the xtra cost of the stuff would just about make it a wash $-wise. If it doesn't break down as easily under high temps., right? Why does go westy still recommend very short change intervals?
Sorry so long! |
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therastavan
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 113
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Switched to Valvoline VR1 20W50 Racing oil (Dino) and everything back to normal. No oil burn. No oil loss. Don’t understand why GoWesty would recommend synthetic. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52277
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| bobbyblack wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| when properly built need anything thicker than 30wt on the hottest summer's day. |
Ok, then how about your recipe on how to properly build, I'd like your take on it. Step by step, podcast, videos, list of proper parts, special tricks, all of it. Please. And, Pretty Please too.
And, I'm not kidding either. I want to build one properly and use 5W30.
-bobby |
If your crank needs work, find a machinist who can get your rod and main bearing ground to no looser than the middle of the clearance range given in the book and go through the oil pump (new or used) to make sure it will deliver top performance. Any abnormal wear to the pressure relief valve needs to be addressed as well. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52277
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| therastavan wrote: |
Yes it is certainly a bizarre oil recommendation here is what GoWesty says about the 10W60: https://www.gowesty.com/product/lubricants/24697/red-line-synthetic-motor-oil---1-qt-10w60-?v=
I assume they know what they are talking about since they recommend this for their own rebuilds.
Today I switched to dino Valvoline VR1 20W50 with high Zinc, I will report back once I see if oil consumption has went back to pre-Redline oil levels.
I know the viscosity index of the Redline 10W60 is really high. |
They certainly do have some bizarre oil recommendations. Don't think I have ever before seen a recommendation that having your crankcase 40% low on oil is okay. It seems their main concern is oil pressure, but oil pressure doesn't have anything to do with an oils ability to lubricate. The 60wt number indicates the oil pump is working hard and not that the bearing are getting sufficient oil flow or that the oil even lubes all that well.
| Quote: |
| The oil capacity of a waterboxer is 5 quarts. These engines have a “wet sump,” and as long as the oil pump pick-up does not starve for oil, oil pressure in the engine will be the same regardless of whether there is one quart of oil present or five; it makes no difference. In general, if no oil has to be added between oil changes, that is what we consider to be “acceptable.” That equates to around ½ quart per 1000 miles. That means that at 3500 miles, the engine will be no more than 2 quarts low. |
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therastavan
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 113
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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Yes it is certainly a bizarre oil recommendation here is what GoWesty says about the 10W60: https://www.gowesty.com/product/lubricants/24697/red-line-synthetic-motor-oil---1-qt-10w60-?v=
I assume they know what they are talking about since they recommend this for their own rebuilds.
Today I switched to dino Valvoline VR1 20W50 with high Zinc, I will report back once I see if oil consumption has went back to pre-Redline oil levels.
I know the viscosity index of the Redline 10W60 is really high. |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 4515
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Xevin wrote: |
| jlrftype7 wrote: |
It would interesting to see what Analysis GoWesty used to arrive at that Oil Spec. And what they feel they gained with going with it versus other Viscosity oils.
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Repeat customers  Just kidding  My unscientific experience with my various VWs has lead me to believe, there is no “One size” fits all. Wildthings engines are probably in better shape then mine. He’s a pro. However, he’s given me a nice baseline to follow over the years with different engines. I personally know many VW professionals and engine builders. They all got different theory. |
That made me laugh about the Repeat Customers.... 
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4615
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| when properly built need anything thicker than 30wt on the hottest summer's day. |
Ok, then how about your recipe on how to properly build, I'd like your take on it. Step by step, podcast, videos, list of proper parts, special tricks, all of it. Please. And, Pretty Please too.
And, I'm not kidding either. I want to build one properly and use 5W30.
-bobby
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Xevin
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 8563
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| jlrftype7 wrote: |
It would interesting to see what Analysis GoWesty used to arrive at that Oil Spec. And what they feel they gained with going with it versus other Viscosity oils.
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Repeat customers Just kidding My unscientific experience with my various VWs has lead me to believe, there is no “One size” fits all. Wildthings engines are probably in better shape then mine. He’s a pro. However, he’s given me a nice baseline to follow over the years with different engines. I personally know many VW professionals and engine builders. They all got different theory.
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Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
| SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 4515
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Never known an engine that required 60wt oil unless it was bum f*ck worn out. I would think that oil flow would be severely hampered using something that thick as the pressure would tend to be high causing thus more oil to be dumped by the relief valve so overall less oil would be reaching the bearings. |
It would interesting to see what Analysis GoWesty used to arrive at that Oil Spec. And what they feel they gained with going with it versus other Viscosity oils.
On the flip side of that, I'm amazed at Modern Engines that spin faster than the WBX, put out way more power but happily live with the stock oil spec of Full Syn 0W-20 oil. Even in really hot climates...
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52277
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Never known an engine that required 60wt oil unless it was bum f*ck worn out. I would think that oil flow would be severely hampered using something that thick as the pressure would tend to be high causing thus more oil to be dumped by the relief valve so overall less oil would be reaching the bearings. |
It is 10w60 so not that thick when starting up. |
It is plenty thick enough when cold that much of the oil is being puked through the relief valve and still plenty thick enough when hot that lots of oil will still be dump instead flowing through the main and rod bearings. I am not sold at all that these engine when properly built need anything thicker than 30wt on the hottest summer's day. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17127
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Never known an engine that required 60wt oil unless it was bum f*ck worn out. I would think that oil flow would be severely hampered using something that thick as the pressure would tend to be high causing thus more oil to be dumped by the relief valve so overall less oil would be reaching the bearings. |
It is 10w60 so not that thick when starting up.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52277
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Never known an engine that required 60wt oil unless it was bum f*ck worn out. I would think that oil flow would be severely hampered using something that thick as the pressure would tend to be high causing thus more oil to be dumped by the relief valve so overall less oil would be reaching the bearings. |
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therastavan
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2020
Posts: 113
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| I have a 1987 Vanagon with 2.3L GoWesty engine with only 30K miles on it and I switched to Redline 10W60 as GoWesty recommends. Prior to the change I used standard dino oil 20w50 and oil consumption was quite low. After the change to the Redline synthetic it increased dramatically, I would say 1 quart for 500 miles. Any ideas why this is happening? I have not read any posts of Vanagon owners switching to synthetic and having such a dramatic increase in consumption. |
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Oil has the ability to scavenge acid deposits, and they effectiveness can be measured as 'TBN' by a number of services such as Blackstone; changing oil with TBN still in spec is wasteful, expensive, and of no benefit with regard to engine life. |
Sure. But the cost for oil analysis is close to that for an oil change (DIY). Good to do an analysis periodically, just to see if metal ions from the bearings are starting to show up...
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3725
Location: Az
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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| I only use Valvoline VR1 racing (non-syn) in my 2.2 WBX. I use a different viscosity depending on outside temps. |
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djkeev
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79426
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Synthetic oil or natural oil? |
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Saw that, but I would of done what the "smart" Vanagoners do and go Subaru.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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djkeev
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