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vwwestyman
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Joined: April 24, 2004
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Location: Wamego, Kansas, USA
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| expo1122 wrote: |
I'm swapping out my 1982 carrier bars for 1983 bars.
The engine position moves in the engine bay, for the transmission mount is this position change done by the rubber isolater that bolts to the body, or is it done by the bracket that bolts to the transmission?
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Is your Vanagon an '82 Diesel or?
I don't know about the Syncro but AFAIK, on the 2WD, the early and late style bars each mount at the same spots on frame and rear apron. The engine (drivetrain) fore/aft position difference is determined by the transmission length and transmission front mount.
A bunch of images I took while measuring difference between the air cooled and WBX transmissions:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dlDZjpMEfLFzpHoB2
If you're changing the bars to accommodate a WBX transmission, I think the WBX rear shift rod section can be adapted to the 80-83.0 air cooled/diesel front shift rod. ..... I think.
IIRC, for the early style shift linkage, the formerly NLA front shift rod bushing that installs above the fuel tank, is available. One reason I updated my '81 to a WBX tranny and entire WBX linkage was b/c at that time, it appeared that bushing was NLA; I wanted to invest in the later tech.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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T3messie
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Joined: October 03, 2017
Posts: 214
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:58 am Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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The position change is done by the transmission part of the bracket.
You will have to fab a custom bracket to make the "old" gearbox work with the "new" engine carrier bars. The shift linkage needs extension also. |
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
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Location: Where?
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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The '83 bars moved the engine rearward in order to accommodate the longer 5-speed DX transaxle. The DX nose mount is also different from the 4-speed version.
Why are you swapping the carrier bars?
What transaxle are you going to be using?
If you are planning on using the 091/1 4-speed (WBX) and later shift linkage then the front nose mount should align without issue. If you are keeping an '82 diesel or air-cooled trans then things will not align without modification to the nose mount and the shift linkage.
Hopefully crazyvwvanman will chime in with added insight. |
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expo1122
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Joined: April 24, 2016
Posts: 6
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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Resurrecting an old post, but I'm in need of an answer. I'm swapping out my 1982 carrier bars for 1983 bars.
The engine position moves in the engine bay, for the transmission mount is this position change done by the rubber isolater that bolts to the body, or is it done by the bracket that bolts to the transmission?
I need to know which part I can keep and which part I need to hunt down. Or it simply just moving the body bracket to pre existing holes in the body?
Thanks in advance! |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| If the crankshaft centerline is set the same installed, it sounds like you would gain 3" clearance with the diesel pan? |
That would be my rough guess yes. As mentioned, the WBX was on the ground when I measured it but I measured at least twice and am happy to measure again.
And speaking of ground clearance....
On my 15º ABA, from the ABA oil pan to each frame rail, I see about 11". Add in the Stupendously Horrendous ™ engine carrier that runs under the pan and it becomes 13" or so.
On this current ABA 50º swap, with the engine set low enough so the ABA intake just touches the engine lid foam, from bottom of diesel oil pan, I see 10.75" for same pan to frame rail measurement. With engine at this height, and ever so just slightly toward driver side, the Mk3 PS pump (banjo fastener actually) clears the '82 diesel carrier. I hope. I'd really like to have PS.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 19070
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| If the crankshaft centerline is set the same installed, it sounds like you would gain 3" clearance with the diesel pan? |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Ground clearance difference question is mostly academic but I was curious to know where the factory diesel crank lines up with the body for future ABA engine height position reference.
Neil. |
So I figured this was worth mentioning.
With my 2.1 WBX on the ground, measuring from bottom of carrier bar to crank centre:
~ 8"
Installed ABA with diesel Vanagon oil pan, measuring from bottom of pan to crank centre:
EDIT ~ 5"
Not an accurate measurement on the WBX but it seems to me there's a difference. So, if one is concerned about ground clearance loss, this may figure into that?
EDIT: deleted last paragraph.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Neil, since you're welding your own engine brackets to the carrier bars, I wouldn't think it to be important that you hew to that early style of drivetrain orientation. You can move everything further aft and lower like the '83 and later diesels and WBX drivetrains. I assume the later configuration put less strain on the CV joints among other benefits. |
For sure Casey. Yes. The mount brackets will be positioned further to rear to accommodate the current OEM WBX 4 speed transmission position.
I'm having trouble deciding on engine height but may mount it so part of the intake is above engine lid. Should I make a custom lower profile intake, raising the engine 1- 1.5" higher shouldn't affect other components.
Ground clearance difference question is mostly academic but I was curious to know where the factory diesel crank lines up with the body for future ABA engine height position reference.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12177
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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Neil, since you're welding your own engine brackets to the carrier bars, I wouldn't think it to be important that you hew to that early style of drivetrain orientation. You can move everything further aft and lower like the '83 and later diesels and WBX drivetrains. I assume the later configuration put less strain on the CV joints among other benefits.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE. |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The diesel nose mounts are different from wbx nose mounts because VW tilts the diesel tranny way up at the nose to drop the back of the engine down for better engine lid clearance. The nose mount bolt patterns for 83+ are the same but diesel brackets are taller to angle the nose up. The rear shift rod is then bent differently in diesels to reach the higher lever on the side of the higher mounted trans.
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So hypothetically speaking......
if we assume the engine weights are equal, using the same gas 2wd Vanagon, between a WBX and Vanagon diesel mounted in that van, what is the ground clearance difference between the lowest point of oil pan or case and ground? Or put another way, how many inches below the rear apron (where diesel arms mount) does that VW spec of 4º put the diesel crank center?
I imagine I could make a 4º cardboard template?
And am I reading the diagram below correctly?
(I edited it)
Thanks
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| vanagonjr wrote: |
| I cut one of these out of my former parts van. Still took about an 1.5 to 2 hours to cut grind and chisel it away from the back panel that it was welded on (if that makes you feel better). |
yes. I feel much better. LOL. Just joking.  Oh, I know that drill. I did the same for the upper rad bracket on my air to water cooled swap.
Ya, it doesn't really matter how long it took I was just attempting to shed light on time vs money one might pay to buy the parts new. (does Tony make these?) i.e. I probably paid myself $10 CND/hour at best. But then I learned more. e.g. next time I'd make the bracket adaptor longer so I could bend an ear above the upper bolt hole. I may even weld a small strip of metal on these two bracket adaptors.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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vanagonjr
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| 91Transporter16" wrote: |
If you are not bending the edges like the factory plates, make them out of 1/4".
Tony |
Thanks again Tony for that tip. I looked at the factory plates on my '81. I see what you mean.
For anyone other first timers diving into this, though I've had a little DIY type "fabricating" experience, I'd suggest its not too hard to more or less replicate the OEM edge bends. It seems to me though, that accurately transferring a mark from the apron to the point on plate where cuts are made, is important. Adjustments could be made at the bolt holes though.
I work slow, but for POV, this took about 5 hours. Sad, yes, but true. At some point I do wonder what my times worth; I'm sure that for most folks, it makes better sense to buy the part.
I'm not suggesting that swaps using 1/8" plates without bends are some how suffering without this; I know too little to say. I mostly did this to see if I could. Obviously the bends add a little rigidity but it now seems obvious that welding the bend to frame will provide even more strength.
Ironically, the first bracket turned out better than the second. In hindsight, I should've extended the bend further than the ~ 10mm shown and run the ear down onto the horizontal plane like the factory part. Just couldn't "see" how to do it at the time.
Neil.
This is the first one. Made these brackets with basic hand tools. Callipers, cut off wheel. I was able to anneal the metal to slightly dark red using a propane torch.
driver side
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I was able to use the stock WBX high and low pressure lines on the ALH PS pump. I'm not sure what pump the ABA uses, but have you checked to see if the banjos are the same? |
Good to know Casey. Thanks.
I haven't checked yet but they may be. But, as was pointed out to me by someone else, is the [presumably] smaller I4 pump sufficient enough, over the long term, to power the Vanagon PS rack? But maybe that's splitting hairs?
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12177
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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I was able to use the stock WBX high and low pressure lines on the ALH PS pump. I'm not sure what pump the ABA uses, but have you checked to see if the banjos are the same?
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE. |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Hey, that's a pretty clean cut!
I'm sure you've already thought of this, but before you settle on it's final resting place, make sure you can bolt up the stock WBX PS return/feed lines. I ended up placing it in a different location than I had planned at the outset, for this very reason.
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Edit: and if I'd removed that bracket while the engine was out, I could've used an angle grinder cut off. Would've taken less time. Hint to others: Easier to remove that part while engine is out! 
Oh, I hired out for that cutting job. LOL. Thanks. Ya, I used my Dremel with metal wheel, then it started to die so cold chisel, a little bending, then some hammer and vice work to kind of straighten it.
Hmm.... well, if I can find a way to adapt the Vanagon PS pump to the ABA, I will. As for the lines, they're pretty rusty so I"m hoping I can keep the reservoir/pump position close to stock when it comes time to install new rubber front to back PS hoses.
Nice install. Lots of room!
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12177
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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Hey, that's a pretty clean cut!
I'm sure you've already thought of this, but before you settle on it's final resting place, make sure you can bolt up the stock WBX PS return/feed lines. I ended up placing it in a different location than I had planned at the outset, for this very reason.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE. |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10513
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I think that PS bracket needs to be cut off and re-installed elsewhere on most 50 degree installs, at least that's been my experience. I had to do this on my 15 degree install, as well. |
Hmm.... well, its off and still in pretty good shape. Would an engine accessory interfere with the reservoir mounted in the OEM position? No worries right now of course. PS is last on the list.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12177
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: '82 vs. '83 diesel engine carrier bar differences |
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I think that PS bracket needs to be cut off and re-installed elsewhere on most 50 degree installs, at least that's been my experience. I had to do this on my 15 degree install, as well.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE. |
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