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djkeev
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dobryan 
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Joined: March 24, 2006
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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 Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] |
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Interesting physics about torque and friction. The coefficient of friction of two surfaces is less for kinetic vs static situations. You can feel this if you are trying to push a cement block. It feels stuck but once you lunge into it you are able to keep it moving with less force than the initial lunge. That initial lunge had to overcome the static friction while the force needed to keep it moving just needs to overcome the kinetic friction. Same is true for nuts and bolts. When you tighten a nut or bolt to a value you are using torque (force on a moment arm) to tighten it against kinetic friction. It will take more torque to move the nut or bolt from that position because you have to overcome the static friction to get it to move. That ‘more torque’ may be small but it is noticeable for very high torque situations.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| A specific weight at a specific distance from the fulcrum with the bar parallel to the ground is more accurate than any torque wrench. The only challenges with that method are making sure you have the specific weight at the specific distance, and not falling. |
That was my belief too but others don’t necessarily agree 100% I guess. I do agree that it’s tough to get the weight in the exact position!
| Steve M. wrote: |
While your rebuilding that heater box you can do the "Jeep Resistor Mod" that moves the Fan Resistor outside of the box so you can change without having to remove the box. Also figure out a way you can get lubricant to the Fan Motor bearing so that you can keep it quiet after the next ten years of use. There is the "Mullendore Port Mod" that makes a hole coming in through the front of the grill or you can do what I did and put a bottle cap over the end of the bearing with a tube running up to the defrost duct to squirt some Tri-Flow down into it. ( I do not like drilling holes in my Syncro!)
A last bit of info is that Brickwerks T3 in the UK sells the plastic tabs that hold the shaft for the vent flap in place. Sometimes they break! I order from Brickwerks on a Monday and the stuff is usually here by Friday of the same week.
https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/t3-parts/heating/heater-box-rod-retainer-t3-left.html
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front. |
What about putting some foam pipe insulation on the Heater pipe going from the engine to the radiator or is that something you'd have to remove in the summer time because you want it to shed the heat! |
Ha! Timely suggestion, I just received the Jeep resistor today.
Though I’m still not 100% decided between that and a PWM system. Sounds attractive but also sounds like some people have problems with them.
I have also looked into that hole in the front but I’m going to be installing an air recirculating flap (from Vanistan) so it’s not ideal. I like the bottle cap idea, I think I could probably figure out a way to have to tube come up through the ashtray.
Also, people seem to put that Jeep resistor on the left side but I remember reading something from someone mentioning that the right side works better (just make longer wires). Any input on that?
I’ve also thought about wrapping some Reflectix around the inlet pipe... I guess it’ll be a seasonal swap, though I can always see how it works. Those noodles might be easier to take on and off.
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6933
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| T3TRIS wrote: |
We're definitely not getting that much heat in the front heater but the bigger problem right now is that the blower hasn't worked ever since we've owned the van.
Our next major project is cleaning up behind the dash. I have a spare heater box I can rebuild before starting so that part should be relatively quick. |
While your rebuilding that heater box you can do the "Jeep Resistor Mod" that moves the Fan Resistor outside of the box so you can change without having to remove the box. Also figure out a way you can get lubricant to the Fan Motor bearing so that you can keep it quiet after the next ten years of use. There is the "Mullendore Port Mod" that makes a hole coming in through the front of the grill or you can do what I did and put a bottle cap over the end of the bearing with a tube running up to the defrost duct to squirt some Tri-Flow down into it. ( I do not like drilling holes in my Syncro!)
A last bit of info is that Brickwerks T3 in the UK sells the plastic tabs that hold the shaft for the vent flap in place. Sometimes they break! I order from Brickwerks on a Monday and the stuff is usually here by Friday of the same week.
https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/t3-parts/heating/heater-box-rod-retainer-t3-left.html
| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front. |
What about putting some foam pipe insulation on the Heater pipe going from the engine to the radiator or is that something you'd have to remove in the summer time because you want it to shed the heat!
The Vanistan Fresh Air Kit closes off the cold air coming in and adds a recirculation valve to recirculate the cabin air through the heater. That should make it a bit warmer.
https://intrepidoverland.com/shop/cabin-air-control/
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] |
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A specific weight at a specific distance from the fulcrum with the bar parallel to the ground is more accurate than any torque wrench. The only challenges with that method are making sure you have the specific weight at the specific distance, and not falling.
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T3TRIS
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Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild [SOLVED] |
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FYI for those of you who were talking about using a proper torque wrench vs the weight/length method, I finally put a torque wrench on the nuts after having tightened them using my weight and driving a good 120 miles + lots of off-roading.
The left side tightened a teeny tiny bit more and the right side didn’t budge. I have no clue how much torque that tiny shift represents but I feel like I was pretty darn close!
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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T3TRIS
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Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Anecdotally, the front heater puts out way less heat than the rear heater. The rear heater used to torch the whole van. After yanking out and replacing the front blower motor, the amount of outputted heat is far less. Temp gauge at the radiator shows consistent temps before and after. It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front. |
We ripped out our rear heater a while back 
We're definitely not getting that much heat in the front heater but the bigger problem right now is that the blower hasn't worked ever since we've owned the van. This trip this weekend was actually the first time it was really inconvenient. Wiping off condensation while maneuvering on obstacles isn't ideal, especially with reduced visibility on the edges and side windows but we made it happen!
Our next major project is cleaning up behind the dash. I have a spare heater box I can rebuild before starting so that part should be relatively quick. Sound deadening, electrical cleanup, wiper maintenance, installing air recirculation and everything else is what will take the longest time. I was thinking about wrapping the front heater inlet hose from the engine block to the heater core in reflective bubble wrap, might help quite a bit really. You're right about the coolant though, we almost never see any temperature above 190º and that's measured on our EJ22 coolant manifold.
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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4Gears4Tires
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Posts: 4390
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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Anecdotally, the front heater puts out way less heat than the rear heater. The rear heater used to torch the whole van. After yanking out and replacing the front blower motor, the amount of outputted heat is far less. Temp gauge at the radiator shows consistent temps before and after. It appears the coolant cools down significantly on it's way to the front.
Something to keep in mind if you are considering yanking the rear at the same time you fix the front.
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'87 Syncro Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition
'85 Westy Sciuridae Domus Edition |
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T3TRIS
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Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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That's all good to know! By the way, we went off-roading again yesterday, in the snow! We wanted to do the exact same easy/moderate trails we did last summer, but see how it was with a few inches of snow. It was a blast and the van performed admirably well again!
Yep... still need to fix our front heater blower...
I still can't believe I did all this temperature tests and replaced wheel bearings between last weekend's off-roading trip and this weekend's. It was colder and more rainy of course but we did dozens of highway miles to get back home at about 38º, driving 55/60mph and using the brakes. I measured the front hubs right away and they were each at about 95º and so were the front outer CV cages. To me, the overpacked grease was undeniably the problem.
By the way, this has more to do with the front end rebuild thread but we couldn't figure out where this loud rattle was coming from on our front end last weekend. Turned out our driver side upper control arm nut was backing off despite tightening that thing down. Happened again this past weekend. I really cinched it down on the trails and it has stayed put but I'm guessing it's time for new hardware.
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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jberger
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Posts: 2476
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| T3TRIS wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
General rule of thumb is to not use a torch on suspension parts. You could affect the hardness.
I learned a long time ago to use side cutters to remove cotter pins and brake springs. I watched a tech stab himself in the lip with his needle nose pliers fighting a brake spring. |
I’m pretty sure I didn’t have the torch there long enough to make a difference but that’s good to know! I’ve wondered if an induction coil would just work like a charm.
Heck, I did that with needle nose pliers trying to fold the cotter pin in place, not even removing it! |
FWIW.. the video you linked was using an oxy\fuel torch. A simple propane torch will not do the trick. As stated above.. heat and suspension parts is not a good idea. In this scenario you are focusing heat on the wasted inner race though.. so no harm\no foul. I have popped races off using a dot or two of cherry red.
J |
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| Sometimes heat is unavoidable. I like to exhaust all my other options. Grinding the slots for your puller was a much better method than what I see in the linked video. I didn't watch it though. I can walk the race off usually with my air hammer with a chisel bit. I have a lot of practice though. |
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T3TRIS
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Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
General rule of thumb is to not use a torch on suspension parts. You could affect the hardness.
I learned a long time ago to use side cutters to remove cotter pins and brake springs. I watched a tech stab himself in the lip with his needle nose pliers fighting a brake spring. |
I’m pretty sure I didn’t have the torch there long enough to make a difference but that’s good to know! I’ve wondered if an induction coil would just work like a charm.
Heck, I did that with needle nose pliers trying to fold the cotter pin in place, not even removing it!
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Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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General rule of thumb is to not use a torch on suspension parts. You could affect the hardness.
I learned a long time ago to use side cutters to remove cotter pins and brake springs. I watched a tech stab himself in the lip with his needle nose pliers fighting a brake spring. |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| korkwood wrote: |
I always put grease next to bearing and never ever had the "hot hubs".
Too much grease escapes thru seals but keeps dirt out of bearings
Just replaced bearing on one side, not because it was worn but 2 studs spun after taking my Syncro for tire work.
Dirt roads really mess up Vanagons...but also lead to better life |
Yeah I don’t think a little bit of grease would hurt but the amount I put in there by mistake couldn’t escape. There was quite a bit of it!
When I was pressing the hub into this bearing, the seal got pushed upward, out of place a little. I only noticed it once the seal was making contact with the hub itself, with the little softer flange compressed on the hub. At that point, the grease is contained and has nowhere to go. The hub is halfway pressed into the inner race, the thick part of the seal is still contained in the steering knuckle and the outer part of the seal is pushed against the hub. The grease is what pushed that seal outward, maybe trapped air helped too. That grease is now both pushing the seal outward but it’s already against the wheel hub. That grease is also trying to spew out of the softer lip of the seal but it’s compressed against the hub too. Now keep pressing with a 20-ton press (there’s no return at that point anyway) and the pressures keep building. Those pressures are building on the metal reinforced seal, which is now tight against the hub, but they are also building on the weaker bearing plastic cage. I’m almost positive that’s what failed. Again, very little grease spewed out of the assembly and the little that did probably came out before the hub was tight against the lifted seal.
You can see in this post the difference in grease colors from the bearing that had these pressures and higher temperatures after just 140 miles of driving.
Add to all this that the Bentley doesn’t mention anything about adding grease... it seems like the likely culprit. Again, not saying you can’t add any grease, but don’t pack it like I did!
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery
Last edited by T3TRIS on Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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korkwood
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Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 63
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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I always put grease next to bearing and never ever had the "hot hubs".
Too much grease escapes thru seals but keeps dirt out of bearings
Just replaced bearing on one side, not because it was worn but 2 studs spun after taking my Syncro for tire work.
Dirt roads really mess up Vanagons...but also lead to better life |
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T3TRIS
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 299
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Or just don't touch it at all when installing. It's sealed. Leave it alone.  |
You're right, I re-worded it.
| jimf909 wrote: |
| Nice work. I love science! |
Thank you!
| MarkWard wrote: |
There's an old trick for removing VW pilot bearings. You pack the bore with grease and then using a spare input shaft, you force it into the grease and it walks the pilot bearing out.
In other words, you probably did develop some pressure with the added grease that wasn't playing well with the other parts. |
Ha, I love these types of clever tricks! Heck I tried to do the inner race wheel bearing removal heat trick when replacing those bearings.
Link
In my version, I hung some rope from the garage joists with a carabiner, connected 3 pieces of metal wire to the studs, sandwiched them with a wheel spacer and lug nuts, connected the assembly to the hanging wire, wound it up and let it spin back while putting a propane torch to it. Didn't work... at all.
Fortunately there was enough of a lip on these particular bearings that they were easy to remove with a standard puller.
| korkwood wrote: |
It sure is a very long discussion. Just wanted to chime in
I am sure heat was caused by improperly installed bearings.
Nothing to do with extra grease, if there was too much of it would easly escape thru the seals. Nothing to do with torque as more torque doesn't do anything to bearings except squeeze hardened inner race more.
I have seen "professional mechanics" installing bearings wrong way
These bearings have to installed carefully and in certain order. |
It is indeed a long discussion but I'm thinking the following quote explains it best.
| T3TRIS wrote: |
I’m thinking the excessive grease on the outside of the bearing was getting pushed around when pressing the wheel hub into place. I suspect the grease pushed the outer seal outward ever so slightly as the hub kept moving inward. The wheel hub eventually met the bearing seal, which is pretty stiff and I believe has an internal metal ring. Then it became a fight between the metal wheel hub pushing onto the bearing seal and the plastic protection on the side of the bearing itself resisting. As more pressure was applied with the press, I bet the outer seal and its internal metal ring won the strength fight and was able to keep the grease inside the assembly. Since the grease itself can’t compress and probably wouldn’t seep out of the seal while the hub could still move inward, the outer plastic cage of the bearing itself was the next weak link and got pushed against the bearing balls.
At least that’s what I’ve been thinking since I first remembered I put grease in there, especially when it was pointed out that the grease was unnecessary. |
Here are the few elements that make it tough for me to think it was something else:
Before replacement, the right side bearing was consistently 20º hotter than left side during short 10mi drive with no breaking. I know I overpacked the right side significantly compared to the left. Barely any grease spewed out when pressing the hub into place.
After the replacement, both bearings run slightly cooler and they both run about the same temperature. The only thing that changed was not adding grease to the outside of the bearings.
You're right, these bearings need to be installed properly and over-torquing shouldn't create heat/pressure as you'd probably strip the threads before you compressed that hardened metal. But that grease can't compress either and almost none of it made it out of the seal, it had to go somewhere, or create pressure on the bearing cage.
Little PSA by the way, be careful pulling and folding cotter pins toward your face with long needle nose pliers, almost lost a tooth!
_________________
Guillaume, Jennifer & T3TRIS
87 2-knob Syncro
- 94 Subaru EJ22, 225/70-R16 CLK 16x7 ET37
- Transaxle rebuild, Mexico paint job, Front end rebuild, 320Ah LiFePO4 Battery |
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korkwood
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Joined: February 08, 2005
Posts: 63
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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It sure is a very long discussion. Just wanted to chime in
I am sure heat was caused by improperly installed bearings.
Nothing to do with extra grease, if there was too much of it would easly escape thru the seals. Nothing to do with torque as more torque doesn't do anything to bearings except squeeze hardened inner race more.
I have seen "professional mechanics" installing bearings wrong way
These bearings have to installed carefully and in certain order. |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 19068
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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There's an old trick for removing VW pilot bearings. You pack the bore with grease and then using a spare input shaft, you force it into the grease and it walks the pilot bearing out.
In other words, you probably did develop some pressure with the added grease that wasn't playing well with the other parts. |
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jimf909
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Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 8247
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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Nice work. I love science!
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- Jim
| Butcher wrote: |
| This is the main fault with DIY'ers, they get together on these forums and pat themselves on their backs spreading bad information. |
Guilty as charged.
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 4390
Location: MD
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Hot lug nuts and hub after Syncro front end rebuild |
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| T3TRIS wrote: |
I'll keep an eye out on things but I'm thinking (hoping) this one is solved. Bottom line is:
Don't overpack your syncro front wheel bearing with grease!!! |
Or just don't touch it at all when installing. It's sealed. Leave it alone.
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'87 Syncro Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition
'85 Westy Sciuridae Domus Edition |
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