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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24390
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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 Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| Quote: |
| o add some more context: Iโve only driven about 20 miles of in-town driving since working on the brakes. While driving I did check the brake drum temperature frequently - it was slightly warm to the touch but not blistering hot. |
Warm is fine. You might want to run them for a while and see if they wear in to good performance.
The beginner mistake is trying to eliminate all drag. This will leave the shoes way too far out from the drum. Once the radii match, you will tighten to full bind, then release 2 notches only
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Howesight
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3425
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| Vancouveria wrote: |
I took the brake drums to the NAPA machine shop down the street. The machinist said one of them was the most out of round heโd ever seen on a brand new drum.
Got them installed and took a test drive, and the pulsing is gone.
The last step on this brake job will be to adjust the handbrake, since with the new drums I have to pull the handle up further than it should have to go. Bentley here I comeโฆ |
I had poor brakes on my rig for years. I remedied that about six months ago. It turns out that I had always installed my rear brake parts in the incorrect configuration, without knowing. When all the parts are correctly installed, the factory Vanagon drum brakes are amazing!! The only real knock against drum brakes is the limited ability to shed heat when they are used heavily or for long periods like mountain down-grades. Even Class 8 trucks are only now switching over to disk brakes. On performance cars, drum brakes do not give enough stopping power or cooling efficiency and have a huge weight penalty. But your Vanagon is not a performance car.
The most commonly-used rear disk brake system for replacing Vanagon rear drum brakes is the Girling system. It's crap. How do I know? Because most of the Audi's I have owned over the last 20 years used the Girling units and if they are set up perfectly with all new parts, they are adequate at best as a parking brake. As a service brake, they are fine. On Westfalia's we are not racing around and are far more concerned that our vans don't roll into the river at night when we are parked in camp.
Back to my drum brake saga. I suppose it took me so many years to correct the drum brakes on our rig because I had no expectations that a Vanagon could ever brake decently. When installing my home-brew Girling G-60 front brake calipers and rotors, (cast-offs from when I upgraded my URS6 brakes to Porsche units), I thought I would give one more huge push of effort to get my rear brakes up to par.
I got new slave cylinders, new quality linings, new drums (they were not out of round), and new parking brake cables. I carefully cleaned and lubed the automatic adjuster mechanism. These items probably all helped, but the single most important change I made was to carefully install all the springs and other bits in the intended orientations. This is critical because without doing this, the automatic adjuster system WILL NOT WORK.
I am glad to hear turning your brake drums resolved the pulsing. Now, before you waste any time playing with parking brake adjustment, be sure that the automatic adjuster is doing what it is designed to do. With the brakes free (ie: no pressure applied to the brake pedal), pull up on the parking brake lever and release it all the way, say, thirty times. You will feel the slack disappearing. Then depress the brake pedal a few times hard. Then take a drive and apply the service brake. Then reverse the van, gathering some speed and hit the service brakes again. Now repeat the procedure described above with the parking brake lever. If you installed all the parts correctly and the automatic adjuster is properly installed and lightly lubed, this will get the brake shoes into perfect adjustment. By the way, Vanagon drum brakes will almost always drag a little after each application and then will slowly retract to the point where there is very little drag. This explains why city driving will usually leave your drums hot to the touch, but highway driving will let them cool close to ambient temps. Drum brakes are self-energizing on the leading shoe, so the shoes always end up moving around in a way that is totally unlike disk brake linings which are very closely controlled by the caliper.
If the parking brake lever is still too high for your liking after the above procedure, then do adjust at the proportioning arm, but most of the time, that is simply not necessary.
Given my own brake odyssey, I sincerely hope this helps.
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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dobryan 
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17302
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Vancouveria
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2020
Posts: 22
Location: Puget Sound
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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I took the brake drums to the NAPA machine shop down the street. The machinist said one of them was the most out of round heโd ever seen on a brand new drum.
Got them installed and took a test drive, and the pulsing is gone.
The last step on this brake job will be to adjust the handbrake, since with the new drums I have to pull the handle up further than it should have to go. Bentley here I comeโฆ |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 914
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| dobryan wrote: |
If you swapped drums from side to side and the problem followed then it sounds like you have a drum that is slightly out of round. Pretty much any old school auto machine shop should be able to 'turn' that drum to get it true. They basically put it on a special lathe machine that takes a small amount of material off the inside contact surface to make it perfectly round.
I would bring them both drums if you decide to do this.
If I am off base I am sure others with more experience will correct me.  |
I installed the "extra heavy duty" drums that VanCafe was selling 5 or 6 years ago. Both were a bit out of round and needed trued. Seems like it has become more common over the years. I would definitely take both in - super easy to chuck it up on the lathe and check it. And of course you'll kick yourself if you still have some pulsing after turning just one...
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do.dah
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 862
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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I think you did a fine job of following the extremely over detailed Bentley.
The thing is, drums are not the same as disc, they tend to have a slight rubbing/drag, especially when freshly installed.
Drag is probably somewhat subjective. I wouldn't be greatly concerned about slight rubbing during a part of the rotation.
When I do my drums, I adjust the star until the drum doesn't really turn well by hand, then I back off 1-3 clicks so the drum turns well by hand. There may be a slight rubbing on part of the rotation, at which point, I may or may not back off one more click.
After that, I drive to the top of my driveway, put it in neutral, apply some brake pressure, and roll back 10-15ft, setting the shoes and letting the brake hardware adjust the brakes. You can do the same thing on a level surface, you just have to slip the clutch some.
Then, drive around some and feel if there is a noticeable temp difference between sides.
Then, have a beer.. |
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17302
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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If you swapped drums from side to side and the problem followed then it sounds like you have a drum that is slightly out of round. Pretty much any old school auto machine shop should be able to 'turn' that drum to get it true. They basically put it on a special lathe machine that takes a small amount of material off the inside contact surface to make it perfectly round.
I would bring them both drums if you decide to do this.
If I am off base I am sure others with more experience will correct me.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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Vancouveria
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2020
Posts: 22
Location: Puget Sound
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| Vancouveria wrote: |
| one of the drums is noticeably dragging once per rotation. |
out of curiosity, which side?
| Vancouveria wrote: |
Is it likely that I somehow damaged the brake drum? I didnโt drop it or subject it to heat, so is there anything else I might have done to cause this? Or did I get a bad part? |
well, could be both. if one side is dragging and you overheated it, it could have warped or it could just be a bad part
reason i ask what side is dragging is i was having a problem which i now think is solved and the brakes are great
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The driverโs side was dragging/rubbing. When I had issues earlier in the thread with the damaged rubber boot it was on the passengerโs side.
To add some more context: Iโve only driven about 20 miles of in-town driving since working on the brakes. While driving I did check the brake drum temperature frequently - it was slightly warm to the touch but not blistering hot.
I was concerned I might not have gotten the adjusters right, so I was in the process of taking the drums off last night to verify my work. My work matches the photos from https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8367832#8367832 so at least I think I got all the pieces in the right places.
In the process I tightened down the adjusters by 5 clicks, and thatโs when I noticed that the drum was dragging once per rotation instead of having an even amount of force the whole โway round.
One last detail - when I swapped drums from side to side as a test, the same drum drags in the same way on the passenger side.
So what are my next steps here? Is this a job for a machine shop? What should I ask them for? |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24390
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| in terms of rear disc brakes... especially "kits" i needed a part for a van that a vendor sold as a "kit" and they WOULD NOT sell any replacement parts to the "kit" as a service item so you had to buy the whole kit. |
WTF?
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17941
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| Vancouveria wrote: |
| one of the drums is noticeably dragging once per rotation. |
out of curiosity, which side?
| Vancouveria wrote: |
Is it likely that I somehow damaged the brake drum? I didnโt drop it or subject it to heat, so is there anything else I might have done to cause this? Or did I get a bad part? |
well, could be both. if one side is dragging and you overheated it, it could have warped or it could just be a bad part
reason i ask what side is dragging is i was having a problem which i now think is solved and the brakes are great
in terms of rear disc brakes... especially "kits" i needed a part for a van that a vendor sold as a "kit" and they WOULD NOT sell any replacement parts to the "kit" as a service item so you had to buy the whole kit.
in my case it was a cable and after much research i figured out what they used and bought a new one for 15 bux instead of almost 1k for a new "kit"
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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VWFIXER
Banned
Joined: January 21, 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Hawaii- Rarotonga
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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Iโve only used 10% sudsy ammonia to clean brake parts in 40 years. Super glue for the boots. Make sure to put a dab of anti-seize on the rubbing surfaces.
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Vancouveria
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2020
Posts: 22
Location: Puget Sound
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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Thanks again for all the help in this thread! I wrapped up work on the brakes a couple weeks ago (my mechanic is very slow but at least the rates are cheap!) and moved on to other projects like changing the transmission oil.
However, Iโm noticing a pulsing when I step on the brake. Iโve got the van back on jack stands tonight, and one of the drums is noticeably dragging once per rotation. For any bike mechanics in the crowd, it feels the same as a bike wheel thatโs out of true.
I assume that the brand new brake drum must be out of round or warped. Is this a job for a machine shop, or should I be contacting the parts vendor? If this is a machine shop job, what should I be asking for?
Is it likely that I somehow damaged the brake drum? I didnโt drop it or subject it to heat, so is there anything else I might have done to cause this? Or did I get a bad part? |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32988
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24390
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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Right, and T4 rear disks are part of ESP, pressure balancing , ABS, and ME7
If your discs have you more stopping power than drums , you drums werenโt in right. Non ABs braking is limited by tire contact anyway.
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kamzcab86
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Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8600
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| Skip the shiny disc brake conversions and leave those for the non-mechanics. Drums will lock the rear wheels and give you a better parking brake , too. If opening brakes up once every 5 years is too much hassle, itโs not the car to own |
BS... er, sorry, respectfully disagree.
Furthermore, my dad, a lifelong mechanic, chucked the drum brakes as the first major modification on his '89. One year later, I finally did the conversion to my '90... single best modification ever done to my heavy Westy, hands-down. The discs, including parking brake, are outperforming the drums by a very wide margin... wouldn't go back to drums on my van if you paid me.
Nevermind you're a Eurovan owner, a model that VW themselves began installing rear discs onto by mid-1996.
Anyone wishing to keep drum brakes on their vans, fine and dandy. But denigrating those who have successfully switched to discs is totally uncalled for.
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1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
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djkeev
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campism
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 4714
Location: Richmond VA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| Vancouveria wrote: |
| Thereโs no stopping me now! |
Not the phrase to use when discussing your brake work.
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'87 Westy in Wolfram Grey Metallic, tragically crushed by a falling hickory tree in my own driveway and now gone, leaving me Vanagonless and with no plans to replace it, alas. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 24390
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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4a pump brakes several times
4b go back to 3 and repeat adjustment
Skip the shiny disc brake conversions and leave those for the non-mechanics. Drums will lock the rear wheels and give you a better parking brake , too. If opening brakes up once every 5 years is too much hassle, itโs not the car to own
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dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 8523
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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Whoa...CLASSIC case of German over-thinking, ...-engineering, ...-domineering, ...(whatever)... 
1) Loosen adjuster enough to allow drum to clear shoes;
2) Install drum & tighten to spec...(sorry, don't have it here in front of me);
3) Tighten adjuster until shoes are heard/felt to <slightly> drag on rotating drum;
4) Loosen adjuster about 1 or 2 (maybe 3) clicks;
5) Verify: little-to-no drag on drums;
6) <Slightly> readjust if necessary (see steps #4 & 5)
7) Install wheel & (mounted) tire to spec [132 ft/lbs, IIRC];
8 ) Drive & <carefully> verify correct brake operation;
9) Beer.
- Dave
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7300
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Brake job woes |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Get the red can, the eco friendly green can stuff is crap!
As are many other brands...... IMHO
DO NOT BREATHE THE VAPORS!
Keep off of your skin.
It is ugly stuff but does the job.
Dave |
The green stuff being crap is state dependent.
I tried the one in CA, it is indeed junk.
The ones I get in HI works wonders, I never get the red one, gross.
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Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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