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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2684
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| krumelmonster wrote: |
| Can we say, that a Subaru gearbox is originally stronger, than an original Vanagon gearbox? And can we say, it's stronger, than a strengthened one? Or it's not that simple... |
It's not simple because there are many ways to build a VW gearbox.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
And none of the methods nor the gearboxes, are OEM.
I think/hope some can be better than OEM but the cost is "unreal".
We don't know yet if Subarus are stronger.
The Subaru R&P is quite a bit smaller than the Vanagon R&P.
The Subaru case is much thinner and lighter than the VW case.
Nobody is reporting mileages. |
Not a Subaru Gearbox ...... but
I built my Air-cool DK transmission in 2010 for a TDI in my 84 Tin-top. It was put in service August, 2012. It now has over 85k miles on it. I used Weddle parts (over $1,000).
27" tires, 1.13 3rd,.77 4th, 4.57 R&P (3075 RPMs=70 MPH)
And, as many of you know, I drove it to Alaska in 2014 & 16 pulling a popup camper (1200 lbs) with loads of stuff on board in the camper and inside the van. The 2016 trip had two additional adults on board and all their stuff. Total miles for those two trips was over 25k.
It has a worn spot on one tooth of the Pinion gear. It was worn before heading out on the second trip to Alaska in 2016. That's been about 15k miles back.
In my opinion, the Vanagon transmission cases are strong. I've never seen one busted. In my opinion the OE style bearings for 3rd and 4th gears are the weakest point. They are in plastic cages. Third gear idler is spinning extremely fast when the transmission is in 4th gear at 70 MPH with OE short gears. Third and 4th idlers are on the Main Shaft which is in the top of the transmission and only get sling oil for lube and cooling. If the plastic cage gives up the ghost, in a matter of seconds teeth will begin to fly off one or both gears (idler and opposing gear)
Hopefully, I'll have a new built DK by early winter. (so far, over $3,000 in )pieces parts)
Yes, it is expensive now days to rebuild a Vanagon transmission. Weddle's prices are out pacing inflation and some things are sold out. Right now, they do not have the front pinion bearing. It is an odd ball and INA no longer makes it.
Tip: Change the break-in oil in 500 miles ... change again in 1500 miles and again in 5000 miles. I used regular Dino oil for break-ins. I'm presently using Synchromesh Pennzoil.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI, two trips to Alaska, 2014 & 16. 1989 Tin-top unmolested.
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine, seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. 1975 Bay hopeful. |
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11BC2
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017
Posts: 496
Location: Cool, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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I'm in the process of modifying another Subaru 5MT to put into my 1.9AAZ powered Doka, using the 50degree SG adapter plate.
My Question:
What (#@&*$*(!! starter am I supposed to use? I've tried a few different VW starters to no avail; the mounting bolt holes don't match up. |
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zebraracing113
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2022
Posts: 1
Location: edmonton ab
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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I have a vw sand rail, and recently installed the 5 speed subaru transmission using the reversed ring and pinion with a 1.8 t from a 2002 a4 .I have driven the buggy a total of probably 5 hrs. I blew the spider gears in the diff. I'm pulling the transmission out today and hoping the ring and
Pinion survived so i can sell it . I haven't found any heavy duty differential for this that aren't a positract., I run steering g brakes and need a open diff.
I do drive very hard but do know how not to abuse the transmission .I've ran the 091 transmission for 30 years and even short course raced with a atock 091 trans.
I wish I spent the money on a mendiola |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| 0cean wrote: |
Yeah, its mostly correct. The only change i would make is its not really about 6 speed vs 5 speed, yet its about AWD vs. 2wd when it comes to length of the trans box and fitting in the space.
P.S. You cant move the engine backwards to make room for the trans, because you exceed the CV's acceptable angles. Even with Porsche CV's. |
Thank you! |
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1153
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| krumelmonster wrote: |
Thanks everyone! Keep posting please 
Conclusions so far (corrections appreciated), from this, and other topics
1. Subaru gearbox is designed for stronger engines, than Vanagon, but no long term data yet (hopefully, because it's good).
2. Subarugears R&P improved, but sometimes, they can brake (like everything else), but the net is not full of horror stories, so it looks like a solid stuff
3. 5MT fits without body modification, with SG mountings, easy install, but it's not cable shifted, linkage modification needed (or conversion to cable shifted?), and it's not for a diesel subaru, which is a risk (diesel torque pulsation). I'd be happy to hear about 5MT gearboxes are strong enough, and easy to install of the shifter.
4. 6MT is designed for high torque diesel, so it would be ideal for me. It's also relatively cheap, as many diesel Subarus suffer from engine problems, and end their life too early injunkyards. But to fit, the transverse beam needs to be cut. Is there any other solution for this? In this topic, it looks like a solution:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
But it's a different engine, than mine, and I also need adaptor plate. So is there a setup to use 6MT:
- without cutting the beam,
- and stock(ish) drivetrain height? |
Yeah, its mostly correct. The only change i would make is its not really about 6 speed vs 5 speed, yet its about AWD vs. 2wd when it comes to length of the trans box and fitting in the space.
P.S. You cant move the engine backwards to make room for the trans, because you exceed the CV's acceptable angles. Even with Porsche CV's.
_________________
I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569920&highlight=
Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
(Number of Different Donor VW Vans Body Parts Used: 12)
(Number of completely different vehicles parts used: 3) |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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Thanks everyone! Keep posting please
Conclusions so far (corrections appreciated), from this, and other topics
1. Subaru gearbox is designed for stronger engines, than Vanagon, but no long term data yet (hopefully, because it's good).
2. Subarugears R&P improved, but sometimes, they can brake (like everything else), but the net is not full of horror stories, so it looks like a solid stuff
3. 5MT fits without body modification, with SG mountings, easy install, but it's not cable shifted, linkage modification needed (or conversion to cable shifted?), and it's not for a diesel subaru, which is a risk (diesel torque pulsation). I'd be happy to hear about 5MT gearboxes are strong enough, and easy to install of the shifter.
4. 6MT is designed for high torque diesel, so it would be ideal for me. It's also relatively cheap, as many diesel Subarus suffer from engine problems, and end their life too early injunkyards. But to fit, the transverse beam needs to be cut. Is there any other solution for this? In this topic, it looks like a solution:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
But it's a different engine, than mine, and I also need adaptor plate. So is there a setup to use 6MT:
- without cutting the beam,
- and stock(ish) drivetrain height? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17925
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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your weakest link will be that SG ring and pinion. they continue to break to this day. someone just posted on a FB group that they are on their 2nd r+p
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10791
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| krumelmonster wrote: |
| Can we say, that a Subaru gearbox is originally stronger, than an original Vanagon gearbox? And can we say, it's stronger, than a strengthened one? Or it's not that simple... |
It's not simple because there are many ways to build a VW gearbox.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
And none of the methods nor the gearboxes, are OEM.
I think/hope some can be better than OEM but the cost is "unreal".
We don't know yet if Subarus are stronger.
The Subaru R&P is quite a bit smaller than the Vanagon R&P.
The Subaru case is much thinner and lighter than the VW case.
Nobody is reporting mileages.
Typically those having problems (for whatever reason) may report problems.
But those NOT having problems are not reporting mileage either.
This makes sense....
But in any case there's not much info about longevity of Subaru sedan gearboxes pushing the brick.
Everyone is "hopeful" that it's a valid conversion.
I hear...... to drive with the 5 speeds...... that it is a dream👍🏽. ( And 6 speeds has to be even better. )
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
| isn't having a Dual Mass Flywheel key in transmission longevity with a diesel? i truly don't know but from the number of failed trans WITHOUT a DMF it seems like it is imperative to use one. |
I think it does, and it's a must. Whether it's a Vanagon or Subaru gearbox, I'll use it. |
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 5907
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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isn't having a Dual Mass Flywheel key in transmission longevity with a diesel? i truly don't know but from the number of failed trans WITHOUT a DMF it seems like it is imperative to use one.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| 0cean wrote: |
I have a Subaru diesel 6 speed in my van now, yet its not running. The problem is the trans is to long and requires cutting the main rear wheel to wheel frame brace. The one under the rear seat. Its not for the faint hearted, yet its totally do-able. Check my thread in the signature for pics. (Page 10)
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Thanks, I checked, and, ooops... That's one thing, I surely not want to do. Yes, I'm faint hearted, in my country, it's an immediate execution on the MOT...
So if the 6MT is only can be installed this way, then I re-plannig, and rather install an 5MT. Is the 5MT strong, like 6MT, or it's (originally) weaker, as it's for less powerful engines?
Last edited by krumelmonster on Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| Silverghost500 wrote: |
| What components keep breaking in your current gearbox? I think I'd check with some of these renown transaxle builders to find out what they're doing to beef them up. |
A lot. Bearings, gear teeth, mainshaft. Once this, then that. I think, the rebuild prices (if it contains stronger parts) are higher, than the subarugears conversion. And the other probem is, that there are no renown builders in my neighborhood, as far as I know. |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| Sodo wrote: |
These contributors have a fantastically higher effect on longevity when the drivetrain component is over-loaded at or beyond its mechanical limit (of the gear and bearing physical sizes).
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It's surely hard to predict the longevity of a gearbox, as there are so many factors. So, I try to simplify it for myself.
The Vanagon gearbox is designed for max 170 Nm torque engines. It can be rebuilt, and strengthen, but for that amount, I can buy a kit and a Subaru gearbox, which is originally designed for double that torque. So it makes simpler from my point of view.
Can we say, that a Subaru gearbox is originally stronger, than an original Vanagon gearbox? And can we say, it's stronger, than a strengthened one? Or it's not that simple... |
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1153
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| Pchill2 wrote: |
| I called Subarugears a few months ago about compatibility of the reversed R&P with the AWD transmission and they said it was not compatible. |
I have a Subaru diesel 6 speed in my van now, yet its not running. The problem is the trans is to long and requires cutting the main rear wheel to wheel frame brace. The one under the rear seat. Its not for the faint hearted, yet its totally do-able. Check my thread in the signature for pics. (Page 10)
P.S. if you go these route, you need the LSD in the trans. It takes out some of the chance of R&P issues from what im told. O-Yeah, you also have to figure out the cable shift setup. Have to go aftermarket, yet its not crazy hard as your already in the rabbit hole at this point.
_________________
I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569920&highlight=
Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
(Number of Different Donor VW Vans Body Parts Used: 12)
(Number of completely different vehicles parts used: 3) |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10791
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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| Silverghost500 wrote: |
| Would it be beneficial to cryogenically treat these transmission components (Weddle & Subarugears) before installation if they're not already to improve longevity? Or would that be pouring snake oil voodoo over a pile of money and lighting it on fire? |
I don't know.
It looks like 'free lunch'.
Like if it worked, everybody would be doing it, including OEMs.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1198
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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Would it be beneficial to cryogenically treat these transmission components (Weddle & Subarugears) before installation if they're not already to improve longevity? Or would that be pouring snake oil voodoo over a pile of money and lighting it on fire?
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A conversion
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10791
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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Sorry you caught me in a (too common) procrastination cycle and here I am typing another book. 
| krumelmonster wrote: |
- 6MT gearboxes are made of glass, they are weaker, than original VW boxes (it's hard to believe, as boxer diesels are stronger engines)
Thank you, if you share your thougths! |
My thoughts are with regards to the duty-cycle.
The comparison of weight and engine torque is just the front side, the numbers.
You have to look "behind the curtain" where the rubber meets the road to estimate longevity of the wear items.
The FIRST graph is related to your first drive with your new conversion engine. !!  !!
The Second graph shows the Duty-Cycle.
The area under the curve is the usage at the necessary torque output and produces the gearbox "wear response".
There are other contributors to longevity.
Pulsations, lugging.
Lubricant cleanliness provided over this lifetime.
Overload produces more metal in the oil (.....no ifs, ands or buts  ).
What is your program to remove this contaminant from the lubricant?
These contributors have a fantastically higher effect on longevity when the drivetrain component is over-loaded at or beyond its mechanical limit (of the gear and bearing physical sizes).
A significant number of our 'weak gearbox data' comes from 'rebuilt' gearboxes.....
-re-used old parts of unknown remaining lifetime (zero to xx,xxx miles). A gear that has only has 20,000 miles remaining can destroy the new bearings, and quickly if nobody's watching the magnet and upping the maintenance. Watching the magnet is not 'easy'. And gearbox death is inevitable anyway at that point.
-part-quality (of new parts)
-customer instructions WRT final cost
-build quality of the re-assembly
All this coupled with the conversion environment (driving style, duty cycle and maintenance).
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If you are driving a Subaru Forester and a Vanagon at the same speed, same grade, same headwind, the Vanagon will require more power.
It will consume more fuel than the Sedan. Burning more fuel ---> more gearbox wear.
The throttle position will be deeper on the vanagon and the drivetrain will experience this higher duty cycle (continuously).
A Diesel Forester that pulled a travel trailer its entire lifetime (continuously) would be a good comparison for longevity.
Smaller trailer: to compare a Doka, Tintop
Bigger trailer: to compare a Camper.
Even bigger trailer: compare to heavy campers, tall campers, campers with many items attached to the outside.
I don't think there is any way to get longevity data for a Forester that pulled a permanent trailer its whole life.
My mom's forester is still fine at 212,000 miles, that's about all we get (grandma/grocery getter etc).
Weddle gears had some trouble a few years ago with longevity. Big-tooth gears are stronger for racing, to be replaced after a season or two. For 'longevity' you need smaller, quieter teeth (like OEM gears). I don't know if Weddle has addressed the longevity complaints, or is even interested, as their focus is racing. Weddle's racing parts happen to fit our gearboxes so we use them, then try to drive 'far'.
VW created a "Dual Mass Flywheel" system to soften Diesel engine pulsations.
I will 'guess' that it was an alternative to increasing the size of the gearbox.
VW went to a lot of trouble to create this cushion, and must have deemed it's additional cost & complexity as "necessary".
?Waldo?, AlikaT3. SyncroandDestroy have incorporated the DMF to their Diesel conversions, likely some others too.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Pchill2
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2021
Posts: 410
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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Disregard my statement. I do remember inquiring on the dual range gearbox with reverse R&P. I believe that is not compatible.
_________________
87 Syncro Westy
Honda K24 swap |
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Silverghost500
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2018
Posts: 1198
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Subaru transmission with TDI engine in a syncro |
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What components keep breaking in your current gearbox? I think I'd check with some of these renown transaxle builders to find out what they're doing to beef them up.
_________________
1986 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia "Von Westy"
Honda K24A conversion
3-Speed Automatic
Von Westy YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbhyZYxJEQrUuLnMbLleeIA |
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krumelmonster
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2013
Posts: 19
Location: Hungary
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