Vanagon 1.9 flat cam or timing issue PLEASE HELP!!!!

[bruiserbabie]

So my 83 Camper Van has a 1.9-L water-cooled engine. It was having trouble starting so I Checked the compression, What I found was #1-40, #2-140, #3-40, #4-140. So I called my mechanic he told me to check the valve adjustment. So I did. I re-set the valves to factory specs. Now the compression is #1-140, #2-140, #3-40, #4-140. I could not get #3 to come up. I also noticed the van had a new small coolant leak. It was going threw 1 gal of coolant every 100 miles. I then called my vw mechanic. He told me it sounded like head gaskets. So I took the van in and had the head gaskets replaced. As soon as they got it back together they called me and told me it did not want to start. And that they thought the lifters needed to be replaced. For the compression on #3 had not come up. It was still at 40. I told them to go-ahead and replace the lifters. They did. Now I have the van back and it runs like crap, I have to advance the timing alot to get it to run as good as It will run but that is not so good. It does not want to idle when cold and has no power. I do have another 84 van with the 1.9L engine and my mechanic just did head gaskets on it and it runs 100 times better than my 83. Now my mechanic wants to rebuild the engine, He says he thinks the cam is flat. He also wants another $1500.00 and I just paid $2500.00. What should I do? Im scared that it will still run like crap and I will have another $1500.00 into it. I have swapped everything off my other van like ECU, Distributor, air flow meter, electric ignition mod, idle stabilizer, it still runs like SH$T. does this sound like a flat cam?

[Wildthings]

Why don't you do a leak down test and see what that shows? It also sounds like your mechanic hasn't a clue, find somebody else who will give you sound advice and service for your money.

[tencentlife]

Tell your guy that if the cam is flat he should prove it. If he doesn't know how to prove it, he's a hack and you should get another mechanic.

But here's a hint about the flat cam: any problem with a cam is going to manifest itself equally in opposing cylinders. It's a center cam with only 4 lobes; #1 and 3 share their cam lobes, 2 and 4 share theirs.

Sticking intake valves have been known to show up in these heads with high miles, too. Did the guy do a valve job when the heads were off? Such a waste of labor if he didn't. Any engine with several years worth of mileage on it can stand a valve job, so if the heads were off most of the labor was done and a valve job should have been done without question. Just good general practice, I don't care what kind of engine it is.
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[bruiserbabie]

I just called another shop and they said it sounds like I have taken it to a mechanic who does not have a clue, and need to get a second opinion. They said they would charge me $65 to $160 and ether fix the problem or tell me whats wrong. So I am going to take it in there. What should I do about the $2500.00 I just spent? I trusted the mechanics best judgement to let me know what needed to be done or if this engine was even worth it to work on. When I went to pick it up it would not start and he smiled, shrugged his sholders and said I dont know. My wife says not to take it back to him. Should I ask him for a partial refund?

[tencentlife]

You were talking about two different vans above, I think, and I'm not clear which is which and what you paid for what. I limit myself to technical advice on this forum; others may offer their opinion on how you spent your money, but always remember, free advice is worth every penny you paid for it. In the auto repair business, money spent is water under the bridge, by and large. You're at the mercy of the mechanic for any recompense; the law is heavily on his side, so don't hold your breath. Just make sure you're in possession of your vehicle; if it's left on his lot, he can place a lien on it for any unpaid money.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[bruiserbabie]

Ya I have the van and have paid him in full for all his hard work. IM just a little upset with the outcome. So back to the technical side of things what do you think it sounds like? Could the cam be off a gear tooth? And its always ran like this? What about the distributor drive? If it’s off will it give this symptom?

[bruiserbabie]

He did a 3 angle valve job on the heads when they were out. He did say the heads looked newer and that #3 valve seats were kinda hammered into the head, (the seats had dropped a little).

[Wildthings]

Why don't you look at this as a tune up problem for now. Check everywhere for vacuum leaks, especially things that may have been apart, like where the manifolds seal to the heads. Check the spray pattern for the injectors and the fuel pressure, and do a full electric diagnostic.

If your low compression is due to bad rings the pressure should come up when you pour a teaspoon of oil into the bad cylinder.

[tencentlife]

These cams can't jump timing unless the gear actually breaks. I've never ever heard of that happening, it's nigh-on impossible, and if it did all cylinders would show the same symptoms, not just one. Plus, the noise would be so horrendous that compression would not be among your concerns.

Diz drive can only jump if it is deliberately removed. That would have no effect on compression at all, and if timing checks out with a strobe then all is well there.

Well, at least he had the good sense to do a valve job. But if #3 intake seat was receding, and he didn't compensate by grinding the valve stem shorter, then it's probable he couldn't get free play on that valve as the starting point for setting lifter preload. So if that's the case, the #3 intake lifter could be bottomed out and holding that valve off the seat. The result: low, or no, compression.
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[Alan Brase]

[austinado16]

Man, what a mess.

First thing to think about is the low compression. The only thing that causes compression to be built up, is the cylinder's ability to take in, and hold air pressure.

That's where you should start this diagnosis. Compression tests are done with the engine hot, all the spark plugs removed, coil wire grounded, throttle held wide open, and engine cranked until the the compression gauge needle no longer rises. That's the only way to get an accurate reading.

Following the results of the compression test done as above, if you find a low cylinder, you squirt in a few CC's of engine oil and retest. If the compression number raises, you know you have a problem with the piston/piston rings/cylinder boar. If the compression does not respond to engine oil, then you know you have a valve problem.

If you have a valve problem, step 1 is to reset the valve adjustment and retest. If the compression still doesn't come up, you either have valves that aren't sealing, or you have valves that aren't opening (flat cam).

Based on what you find, you choose a path of repair.

At this point, you need to prove that you either do, or do not have broken piston rings in your dead cylinder. You know you don't have a cam problem.

Always start with the basics, no matter what's been done, or what you're being told, and move toward the more complex.
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4 little pistons hammering themselves silly
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1970 Austin America
1966 Mercedes 250SE Coupe (sunroof & 4 on the floor)
1981 Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel LX P/u
1986 Kawasaki Ninja 600R
1990 GMC 1/2ton 4x4 Suburban
1995 Audi A6 Quattro Avant

[bruiserbabie]

So the second opinion shop I took the van to says it is definitely a flat cam. He said the total miles on the van are 150,000 and that the bottom end is the original, they said the only way they could get the compression to come up was to back the adjusters off to 0. He also said the oil light flickers at idle and that is an indication of worn bearings. I called the shop (first shop that just did the head gaskets) they said to bring it back and for $1500.00 more they will rebuild the bottom end. Looks like that’s what IM going to do. Thanks again for all you help. This one was driving me crazy.........

[tencentlife]

I mentioned earlier that if the cam is indeed flat, that it should be proven. This is so easy to do it's not even funny: remove the rocker set on either side, rig a dial indicator to each pushrod, and rotate the engine by hand to measure the cam lobe. A flat cam will show low lift. There is no guessing involved here, it is a definitive measurement.

A cam would have to flatter than flat to produce those low comp numbers; this is a condition that would develop very gradually.

You said above that originally there was low comp in 1 and 3. Then after fiddling with valve adjustment, one side came up and the other didn't. That does not suggest a flat cam, that suggests trouble with a lifter, a valve sticking or burning, or really bad rings. But there's no reason to go on suspicions; all of these can be proven, and should be proven before embarking on a complete engine teardown.

It's your money; they will find something wrong on teardown, but me, I'm not betting on a flat cam.

We wait with bated breath.......
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[Wildthings]

[stevey88]

If you are going to do what 10c suggest ( I don't know why not since it is so easy) and if you have a stick shift, you can jack up one rear wheel, put it in 4th gear and turn the wheel when you are lying on your back. You can see the valves opening and closing.
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Steve

87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed

[240Gordy]