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Grant
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Middle seats Reply with quote

The 2nd post in this thread has all the details.

If you need to update or add anything to that post, please PM EverettB with the information and I will update it.
Or post in this thread.
Thank you.


Please post anything you know

Year changes
Material
Colors
Legs
Grab bars
Deluxe ones
Options for different years (?)
Anything else

Hopefully we can stop most of the middle seat questions, and help some Bus people out.
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Lind
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the characteristics of the seats cross over many years, so there are many one year only seats
due to the upholstery combination and the physical characteristics of the frame and springs.

this list is geared towards german buses produced for the american market. some buses
for different markets or buses produced in different countries from germany might have
different seats.

this info is compiled from my research since 1992. if anyone knows of any specifics that differ
from this, please post your findings/theories. I would especially like information on the
cutoff of six leg/four leg seats. (chassis numbers and floor plate arrangements for
mid '56 buses) also, if anyone has information on characteristics and cutoffs on very early
seats (pre '52) please post that information. I will continue to update this post as more
information comes in. this is most of the picture though.

characteristics for full seats:
six legs '50?-mid '56 (april or so)
four legs which are all paralell mid '56-'63
four legs which the outer one on the passenger side is angled in respect to the others '64-'67
four legs which have diagonal supports inside them '67+
flipper portion has a latch with a release lever on the side '68+

aluminum grab bar attached to the back of the seat '50-'51?
aluminum grab bar that attaches to the top of the seat '52-mid '61
plastic/rubber grab bar which is thin and has chromed ends mid '61-'63
plastic/rubber grab bar which is thick and has plastic ends '64-'67
plastic grab bar on the back of the seat '68+
Grab handle thread

flat backrest with fat bottom springs '50-'57
curved (convex) backrest with small bottom springs '58-'67
flipper portion fold straight forward '50-'63
flipper portion folds at a slight angle '64+

pleats - microbus '50-'63
heat seams - microbus '64
black upholstery with no pleats '50-'58 kombi
grey upholstery with no pleats '59-'64 kombi
ashtray on back of seat - microbus
no ashtray - kombi

characteristics for 2/3 seats:
grab bars are same styles/years as for full seats.
prior to 1959 2/3 seats are very very rare.
'59-'66, the frame and springs are the same.
'52?-'66 the armrest bar is attatched at two points.
'67+, the passenger side leg was located closer to the center giving it a slight overhang.
'67+ diagonal support inside legs.
'67-'68 the armrest bar comes from the back and dead ends.
'69-'79 the armrest bar comes from the front and dead ends.

'68+ 2/3 seats will bolt right into a '67. '68 only seats can be somewhat easily converted
to become a '67 seat.

other odds and ends:
doubledoor buses had double flipper middle seats
'67 grab bars angle down towards the center attachment point
early -mid '61 deluxes have white ribed vinyl material on the grab bar

in the '59-'67 model years, the middle seat is determined by the model number of the bus:
types 221 and 241 (or 22 and 24) had full seats
types 281 and 251 (or 28 and 25) had 2/3 seats
walk through was a seperate option from the middle seat size. most pre '64 walk through
buses had full width middle seats. most '64-'67 walk through buses had 2/3 seats. look
at the model number, not the walkthroughness of the bus to determine the middle seat
arrangement. (also looking at the mounting points on the floor might help, except for '67
which has mounting points for both styles)

middle seat kick panels
'51? through '58 have the snowflake pattern in the aluminum trim.
'58 through '67 have the lined pattern in the aluminum trim.
there is at least one known panel with OG caramel upholstery and a snowflake pattern
this would indicate that the snowflake pattern extended into the '59 model year.
the early style of middle and rear seat kick panels were made from wood. the later ones
were pressed board. I think the cutoff was sometime in '56. anyone know a closer date?
any '56 buses out there with their original seat kick panels?

kick panels for full seats:
the shape of the panel is the same '50-'63
'64-'67 has a different shape.
'67 has a unique set of clip locations due to the diagonal support bar.
'67 panels will fit onto '64-'66 seats, but '64-'67 panels will not fit onto '67 seats.

kick panels for 2/3 seats:
2/3 seat panels have the same shape '51?-'66
'67 has the shape of a '50-'63 full seat kick panel and a unique set of clip locations for
above stated reasons.
the 2/3 panels have a cutout for the armrest bar. otherwise, the shape is the same as
'50-'63 full panels.

Hardware
Barndoors used just a T bolt with nut and clamp.
Post barndoors also used base plates as well as the T bolt with nut and clamp.
The nut is a 17mm nut for Microbuses and a wingnut for Kombis.

The clamp has a smooth inside of the arch '50-'66.
The clamp has a nub inside of the arch '67-'79.

The tall clamps are for middle seats.
The short clamps are for rear seats.

The plates are cast aluminum until at least '64 and pressed steel from at least '66. Does anyone have original-to-the-Bus base plates for a '65 Bus that can state the style?

Hardware photos are near the bottom of this post

Pictures
thanks to all who have posted pics in the gallery.

full seats:
late '55-early'56 light brown full middle seat (six leg)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'56-'57 black kombi full seat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'59-mid'61 blue grey full seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


mid '61-'63 grey/grey (silverbiege) full seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'66 mesh platinum full seat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'66 aero papyrus full seat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'67 Salt and pepper (mesh grey) full seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


2/3 seats:
'50-51 2/3 seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'57 soft green 2/3 seat (armrest has been hacked off)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


mid '61-'63 grey/grey (silverbiege) 2/3 seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'59-mid '61 caramel brown 2/3 seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'62-'63 como green 2/3 seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'64 como green 2/3 seat with heat seams
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'64 Basalt Grey full length seat:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'67 only salt and pepper (mesh grey) 2/3 seat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'67 only Mesh platinum
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Bay seat kicked to the curb..........
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

More photos of a 68-69 Bay Window middle seat (very similar to 1967 seat):
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_keywords=1968-69+Bay+Window+middle+seat
'67 middle seat leg design vs. Bay Window seat design:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

'67 is on the left, Bay Window on the right

double flippers:
'59-'61 kombi with double flipper.
note wingnuts, no floormat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'59-mid'61 caramel brown double flipper.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


mid '61-'63 como green double flipper.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'67 double flipper with salt and pepper upholstery (mesh grey)
note the angle of the flippers ('64-'67 identifier)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



kick panels
'59-mid'61 caramel brown full seat panel and a '55-'58 soft green full seat panel.
showing the differences between the '51-'58 "jack frost" or "snowflake" panel and the
'59-'67 lined panel.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


shape for a '51-'63 full seat kick panel or a '67 only 2/3 seat kick panel. (upholstery and
aluminum are different for different years of course)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


comparison between '51-'63 full seat kick panel (top) and a '51-'66 2/3 seat kick panel.
note half-round cutout for armrest bar
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


'55-'58 soft green 2/3 panel
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


shape for a '64-'67 full seat kick panel.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


64-67 Como green full length kick panel
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Short middle seat arm rest detail:
Size: 215mm length x 50mm width x 45mm height
Exterior:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Internals:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


gratuitous displays:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


from the first annual ECMSAS meeting:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


yes, middle seats attract goofballs. (that is me front and center)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


mirror image kick panels are for the other side on doubledoor buses.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hardware photos
Middle seat mount with nub (nub added in 1967)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Wingnuts and tall middle seat mounts
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Seat clamps
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

55-64/65(?) Middle seat plates
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Cargo floor with mounts:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Also see this post
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8577809#8577809

Middle seat mounts on floor (1967 version):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


more to come.............

For Bay Window middle seats, see this thread


Last edited by Lind on Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:29 am; edited 24 times in total
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eroseme
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tricky mounting tips. Like I have a 69 middle and I want to mount it in my 64 Sundial, but use the original mount cut-outs. So a guy suggested welding the mounts in the original cut-outs, and then welding an adapter to the middle seat legs, so that you have the flexibility to install a real middle seat if one appears out of thin air.

Also, there's lots of banter about middle seatbelt mounting tactics. I have not reached that point yet.
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j.pickens
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What weirdness? This doesn't even register on the weird-o-meter.

Here's a fine photo from the Bricktop kickpanel museum in 'Dena:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The earlier kick panels had "snowflake" pattern trim, later ones had the ribbed trim.

I am not in the know about year breaks for these parts, others may chime in.

The middle two look like late '66 to '67 because of the notch, I think.

Someone like Lind needs to give us the real skinny.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And from the curator of the ECMSAS archives, Uzi provides some rare unobtainium, matching double flipper middle seat kick panels:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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BeaterBarndoor wrote:

i wish more people would actually drive their vws rather than just talking about what they have in the garage.

Red Fau Veh wrote:
If you've seen one sunroof swivel seat kombi, you've seen them all! Cool
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Lind
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

j.pickens wrote:
What weirdness? This doesn't even register on the weird-o-meter.

Here's a fine photo from the Bricktop kickpanel museum in 'Dena:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The earlier kick panels had "snowflake" pattern trim, later ones had the ribbed trim.

I am not in the know about year breaks for these parts, others may chime in.

The middle two look like late '66 to '67 because of the notch, I think.

Someone like Lind needs to give us the real skinny.


from left to right:

snowflake ('51?-'58?) panel with black upholstery which is barndoor deluxe.

'59-mid '61 panel for a 2/3 seat with caramel brown upholstery

'65-'66 panel for a 2/3 seat with salt and pepper upholstery

'64-'66 or '67 only full seat panel with bad upholstery.

I am putting the year breaks/changes in my earlier post near the top of this topic.

snowflake
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not %100 middle seat - but I have conficting information/experience about heat seams. I have seen both 64's w/o heat seams & 63's w/ heat seams. To the best of my knowledge the seats were original to said buses. Any comments?
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Lind
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanw3 wrote:
Lind - could you also address the 58 only middle seat issue as well?
the '58 only seats are that one year only because they are the intersection of the early upholstery colors and the later spring shape/back profile.

when you really get into it, in the post barndoor years there is no seat that is technically correct for more than three years of buses. the frames may fit more years, but the frame/upholstery combos changed every couple years.
precious_ponies wrote:
not %100 middle seat - but I have conficting information/experience about heat seams. I have seen both 64's w/o heat seams & 63's w/ heat seams. To the best of my knowledge the seats were original to said buses. Any comments?
I had a very original june 24 '63 deluxe with pleated seats.

I have not seen any '64 only seats with pleats ('64 only due to upholstery/frame combo)
Sundial Camper wrote:
What about the ever popular "how to ship a middle seat" question....
GREYHOUND the easiest way to ship middle seats. under $100 most anywhere in the country.
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Grant
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey lind, what if the bus is a walkthrough AND a double door? im guessing a 2/3 seat? with half of that a flipper?


did this ever come out of the factory?

-Grant
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Lind
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grant88 wrote:
hey lind, what if the bus is a walkthrough AND a double door? im guessing a 2/3 seat? with half of that a flipper?

did this ever come out of the factory?

-Grant

there are very few walk through doubledoor buses. also remember that the middle seat is seperate from the walkthroughness of a bus. most pre '64 walk throughs had full seats. virtually all '64-'67 walk throughs had 2/3 seats.

there is one seat that turned up out of a '67 doubledoor which is a 2/3 seat that the whole backrest fold forward.

there is another '58 doubledoor walk through deluxe that appears to have had a centrally mounted 2/3 middle seat. this was a factory special bus though.

other than that all doubledoors that I know of had full seats. there is a promo photo of a '51 or '52 doubledoor with a single flipper seat.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking for LHD Barndoor deluxe middle seat kick panel. I have the chance of a RHD one, is the metal part the same shape so i can i use the metal part for a LHD panel? Should i be even thinking of doing this?
Another question,what about middle/rear seat hardwear,clamps, bolts, wing nuts and the differences through the years?
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Lind
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusting Hulk wrote:
I'm looking for LHD Barndoor deluxe middle seat kick panel. I have the chance of a RHD one, is the metal part the same shape so i can i use the metal part for a LHD panel? Should i be even thinking of doing this?
Another question,what about middle/rear seat hardwear,clamps, bolts, wing nuts and the differences through the years?

the shape of the metal is different between the two. they are a mirror image of each other.

I will add some hardware info to my big list.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is some info I received from the from the curator of the WCMSAS. The '67 2/3 middle seat grab handle has a slight downward taper from the outer mounting points twards the middle mounting point, making it yet another '67 "one-year-only" item.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my floor plates are my reason for saying it is a 2/3 seat.
my floor plates line up only with the far inner leg, and the other
plates not quite line up with the SECOND leg from the outer side
and you can not get the clamps on it to hold it down.

i have no m-code plate, as it is a may 58 standard, but i can tell
you that there is no way to mount a full seat in the and use all the
clamps.
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Lind
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

larryt wrote:
my floor plates are my reason for saying it is a 2/3 seat.
my floor plates line up only with the far inner leg, and the other
plates not quite line up with the SECOND leg from the outer side
and you can not get the clamps on it to hold it down.

i have no m-code plate, as it is a may 58 standard, but i can tell
you that there is no way to mount a full seat in the and use all the
clamps.

on pre '67 buses, onlt the two outer legs get clamps. the middle leg(s) don't get clamps. if your floor is original and not messed with and your floor plates are offset about a foor towards the center on the passenger sid, then you need a 2/3 seat. the seat frame for a 2/3 seat is the same from '56-'66, so it should be no problem finding a seat frame.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going on this middle seat theme I have a friend with a 66 aero papirus middle seat with a greenish metalic grab handle. The rear grab handle is also this weird greenish metalic color wile the dash handle is cloud white. I have seen a few more of these over the years but VERY FEW.
He was wanting to replace it with an off white one but I convinced him not to .
Did all 66 aero papirus interiors come with this weird grab handle or was this a short and ugly mistake on vw's part? I find no listing for a colored vinyl grab handle in any of the parts lists. Is there a name for this color?
also I have noticed a few 59-60ish seats with a metal grab bar that was coverd in a ribed vinyl material similar to old westy table legs..where do these fit in to the middle seat sequence?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys

I got this seat with my late 62 23w. Can someone confirm its a '66 model as above?

I actually got the full interior in this colour. Is it the aero/papryus as above?

Cheers
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Rain's Westy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

without seeing the legs of the seat I cannot tell if it is a 66 0r 67 but it is one of the two and yes you are correct it is aero papyrus and out of a Sea blue/ white delux bus I just posted some pics of my interior in this color http://thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/200238.jpg
67 og Aero papiris white interior


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike spadafora wrote:
Going on this middle seat theme I have a friend with a 66 aero papirus middle seat with a greenish metalic grab handle. The rear grab handle is also this weird greenish metalic color wile the dash handle is cloud white. I have seen a few more of these over the years but VERY FEW.
He was wanting to replace it with an off white one but I convinced him not to .
Did all 66 aero papirus interiors come with this weird grab handle or was this a short and ugly mistake on vw's part? I find no listing for a colored vinyl grab handle in any of the parts lists. Is there a name for this color?
also I have noticed a few 59-60ish seats with a metal grab bar that was coverd in a ribed vinyl material similar to old westy table legs..where do these fit in to the middle seat sequence?


These seats are Deluxe Only I believe,and are from 1961 ONLY
I have a Mint one,Original upholstery, 2 tone grey color,white piping, I believe from memory...I shoud remember.It's in the Bedroom next to the Bed! Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

merz356 wrote:
mike spadafora wrote:
Going on this middle seat theme I have a friend with a 66 aero papirus middle seat with a greenish metalic grab handle. The rear grab handle is also this weird greenish metalic color wile the dash handle is cloud white. I have seen a few more of these over the years but VERY FEW.
He was wanting to replace it with an off white one but I convinced him not to .
Did all 66 aero papirus interiors come with this weird grab handle or was this a short and ugly mistake on vw's part? I find no listing for a colored vinyl grab handle in any of the parts lists. Is there a name for this color?
also I have noticed a few 59-60ish seats with a metal grab bar that was coverd in a ribed vinyl material similar to old westy table legs..where do these fit in to the middle seat sequence?


These seats are Deluxe Only I believe,and are from 1961 ONLY
I have a Mint one,Original upholstery, 2 tone grey color,white piping, I believe from memory...I shoud remember.It's in the Bedroom next to the Bed! Laughing

Ok that makes sence . I remember seeing a seat with the vinyl coverd metal tube in a 61 15 window. I was not sure thoe. A friend of mine found one of them at goodwill of all places and paid $40.00 for it... it looked nos!...
Luckey shit!
... Confused
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