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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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 Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
Read your post, and its attachment, I dont see the refereance in the attachment allowing more zinc in heavy oils. you say it is from the horses mouth, do you have a page number this info is on in your attachment? |
Once again:
| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
On what page is the information on high zinc levels allowed on higher wieght oils?
thanks |
Zinc and phosphorus are two ingredients of the ZDDP molecule which is the antiwear additive you want, not straight zinc. When the API requires or limits the amount of phosphorus in the oil they are automatically requiring or limiting the amount of zinc as the two are chemically tied together in the ZDDP molecule. If you have 1000ppm phosphorus you automatically have ~1100ppm by weight of zinc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZDDP |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
Read your post, and its attachment, I dont see the refereance in the attachment allowing more zinc in heavy oils. you say it is from the horses mouth, do you have a page number this info is on in your attachment? |
Once again:
| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
On what page is the information on high zinc levels allowed on higher wieght oils?
thanks |
Zinc and phosphorus are two ingredients of the ZDDP molecule which is the antiwear additive you want, not straight zinc. When the API requires or limits the amount of phosphorus in the oil they are automatically requiring or limiting the amount of zinc as the two are chemically tied together in the ZDDP molecule. If you have 1000ppm phosphorus you automatically have ~1100ppm by weight of zinc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZDDP |
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I am actually refering to this API referance that you quoted as the source for the info that higher wieght oils are allowed to run higher concentrations of zddp than the lower wieghts.
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/new/upload/1509techbull1complete.pdf
Do you have a page number from this referance? I have read over twice and cant find that info in the referance. I must be blind, computer screen induced eye strain.
thanks |
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nemobuscaptain
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Joined: March 07, 2002
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
Do you have a page number from this referance? I have read over twice and cant find that info in the referance. I must be blind, computer screen induced eye strain.
thanks |
Did you look at the Wikipedia link I posted for you twice now? If you did you should be able to understand that both zinc and phosphorus are components of the anti-wear ZDDP oil additive. They are chemically bonded to form the ZDDP molecule, you don't get one without the other. If you limit the amount phosphorus in your oil you automatically limit the amount of ZDDP and thereby the amount of zinc. |
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bluebus86
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Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
Do you have a page number from this referance? I have read over twice and cant find that info in the referance. I must be blind, computer screen induced eye strain.
thanks |
Did you look at the Wikipedia link I posted for you twice now? If you did you should be able to understand that both zinc and phosphorus are components of the anti-wear ZDDP oil additive. They are chemically bonded to form the ZDDP molecule, you don't get one without the other. If you limit the amount phosphorus in your oil you automatically limit the amount of ZDDP and thereby the amount of zinc. |
Yes I looked at it thank you. But that is not what I am asking you about.
You posted......
"
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 19320
Posted: Yesterday 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Seriously now...
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Any oil with a second number higher than 30 is not restricted in the amount of ZDDP (zinc) that can be added. People seem to do flips because modern 15w40, 5w40, 20w50 carry the SN/SM rating and they incorrectly think these heavier oils have no ZDDP as a result. In reality all motor oils are required to have some ZDDP (actually .06% phosphorus which translates to ~ .07% zinc) and the thicker oils may have as much ZDDP as the manufacture chooses to add.
The horses mouth:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/new/upload/1509techbull1complete.pdf
"
What I am asking you about, is what is the information source you used in referance to you stating that....
"Any oil with a second number higher than 30 is not restricted in the amount of ZDDP (zinc) that can be added."
Is this information in the API referance that you posted?
i.e. "The horses mouth:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/new/upload/1509techbull1complete.pdf "
I can't seem to find it in there.
Thanks in advance. |
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
I can't seem to find it in there.
Thanks in advance. |
Go to page #10, Table G-4—Requirements for API Service Category SM and look under the "All Others" column
Go down to the ASTM D4951, phosphorus % mass, max row
You will find that the charts says NR at this point for Not Required, as in there is no maximum phosphorus limitation for the "All Others" heavier oils
The same info is on page #12 for SN oils |
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morymob
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Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Anyone figgured out the purpose of the titanium additive in Castrol syntac's oil, does it replace the zinc?? |
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EverettB 
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Location: Phoenix Metro
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bluebus86
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Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
I can't seem to find it in there.
Thanks in advance. |
Go to page #10, Table G-4—Requirements for API Service Category SM and look under the "All Others" column
Go down to the ASTM D4951, phosphorus % mass, max row
You will find that the charts says NR at this point for Not Required, as in there is no maximum phosphorus limitation for the "All Others" heavier oils
The same info is on page #12 for SN oils |
got it, thank you
Also note that SN oils of heavy wieght (greater than 30) do have restrictions on zinc if the oil is rated as "resource conserving". These oils have as little zinc as the lighter oils (page 12 of API attachment)
So the selection process is not as simple as buying a greater than 30 wieght oil to be assured of high zinc levels. If the bottle lable states it is "resource conserving", even if it is 50 wieght, it will not have enough zinc for older engines, much like the lighter API rated oils lack.
So some heavier than 30 wieght oils are allowed to have more zinc than the lighter wieght oils. But not all 50 wieght oil will have enough zinc. The heavy oils are either not regulated or are regulated to the lower levels of zinc if resource conserving types. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
Also note that SN oils of heavy wieght (greater than 30) do have restrictions on zinc if the oil is rated as "resource conserving". These oils have as little zinc as the lighter oils (page 12 of API attachment)
So the selection process is not as simple as buying a greater than 30 wieght oil to be assured of high zinc levels. If the bottle lable states it is "resource conserving", even if it is 50 wieght, it will not have enough zinc for older engines, much like the lighter API rated oils lack.
So some heavier than 30 wieght oils are allowed to have more zinc than the lighter wieght oils. But not all 50 wieght oil will have enough zinc. The heavy oils are either not regulated or are regulated to the lower levels of zinc if resource conserving types. |
Yes there are a few oils with second numbers higher than 30 that may have regulated phosphorus, but these are not the norm, there are not going to be a wide selection of energy conserving oils on the shelf at your local Walmart. Most energy conserving oils are probably either 0w40 or 5w40 oil, though there may also be a 10w40 or two. As far as I know there are no xxw50 energy conserving oils. It pays to research whatever oil you are buying regardless.  All energy conserving oils should be marked as such. |
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nemobuscaptain
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LandSailor
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 315
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes, reading TheSamba helps; sometimes it just leads to more confusion.
So, am I going to kill this 84 with Castrol High Mileage 20W-50 and a Fram filter or not?
Live in Las Vegas. Oil plug came loose after our non-stop return trip from San Francisco, so I changed the oil yesterday with what was available. Just completed a 1,700 mile trip. Plug was loose and leaking, but oil level was OK.
I'll get a stock of the Mann/Mahle filters soon, but is it an urgent issue to change it or not? I read about one owner who uses them exclusively. I can't imagine putting 3K on it any time soon.
Do I also need to order a few bottles of ZDDPlus or not? Can I just add the Red Line engine break in ZDDP stuff for now? I could probably get that locally.
After reading all the threads, my mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative ways to possibly kill my engine.
Thanks! |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| 20w50 is probably thicker than your need, but it isn't going to hurt anything either. A lot of people run it. |
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Ahwahnee
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Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9800
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I use Castrol 20w50 & a Fram filter year 'round in a climate similar to Lost Wages. I do not use ZDDP in this engine.
Been doing this for 24 years w/o any issues. IMO, you can overthink the whole oil/oil filter thing. |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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EVERY vanagon I've had that had the death buzzer going off, fixed it when I put a MANN filter on it, and removed the Quick Lube or FRAM filter that was on there. Though I did have one switch go bad.
The filter issue is a very common problem, don't overlook it. IMO you are crazy to use a non-Mann/Wix filter knowing this problem is out there.
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Surfy Murphy
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Joined: September 05, 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone ever used this oil in their vanagon? They claim high ZDDP, and have a couple oils that are formulated for old volks and porsche engines. I'm curious, though I've been using Rotella T synthetic 15-40W without any issues.
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/dt50-synthetic-15w-50html/
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1987 Orly Blue Sunroof Syncro, EJ25 |
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AtlasShrugged
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Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfy Murphy wrote: |
Has anyone ever used this oil in their vanagon? They claim high ZDDP, and have a couple oils that are formulated for old volks and porsche engines. I'm curious, though I've been using Rotella T synthetic 15-40W without any issues.
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/dt50-synthetic-15w-50html/ |
The Rotella 15w40 is a Dino oil..The Rotella 5w40 T6 is a synthetic.
Both are fine in a Vanagon.
Use a Mann or Malhe oil filter..it solves a lot of problems. |
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designer
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Joined: November 05, 2009
Posts: 484
Location: Idaho-but just the tip
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I just picked up some schaeffers supreme 7000 20w/50 synthetic plus. Says w extra zinc which some of you say is needed or beneficial. I have a newly installed rebuilt top and bottom 2.1 WBX.
Some have said synth, some non synth. Seems to me synth for what I've read posted but my mech said a Mobil 1 delvac non synth was the way to go.
Should I go to Wally World for the M1? The Schafer is expensive but I need to treat her well. We have a long way to go yet. |
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designer
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Posts: 484
Location: Idaho-but just the tip
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Did I do it right?
Photos? Maybe? |
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AtlasShrugged
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Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| designer wrote: |
Did I do it right?
Photos? Maybe? |
The Schaeffer oil is very robust..PAO (group IV), ZDDP and moly.
The big question is in that this is labeled as a "racing" oil, it may not have the detergents most engine oils have for long term use. "Racing" oils are changed frequently and don't typically need a detergent/additive package.
Most HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oil like Rotella or Delo) or PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil like you would see at any FLAPS) go 5000 miles or more. "Racing" oils less than a 1000 miles.
I would suggest you contact Schaeffer and ask them if the "racing" oil is suitable for road use.
Most HDEO products are just fine in a WBX. If you want big ZDDP numbers, near synthetic oil (group II+) and an excellent additive package..use Delo 400LE 15w40.
I use Rotella T6 synthetic 5w40 in my WBX year round with no issues.
See the link below for the specs on Delo.
http://www.pqiamerica.com/May%202013/chevrondelo.htm |
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