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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32592
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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 Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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20% increase in fuel efficiency is huge! does the van seem any perkier?
-dan |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32592
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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pinetreeporsche
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2009
Posts: 752
Location: Falls Church, VA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| Does anyone who has changed to NGK triple electrode spark plugs have enough data to know if that improved the gas mileage? |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32592
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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There may be a Thread on this... but, it is sort of fitting here.
Has anyone used E85 in their Vanagon?
I've filled up several times so that the tank was extremely close to 100% E85. Fuel economy dropped by about 27%.
The reason I've used E85 is to clean out the system. My 89 had been sitting outside a garage for well over 18 months when I purchased it. When I got it going, even with new plugs, filters, etc., and fresh gasoline, it did not run good at all. Several tanks of E85, and of course, just driving it made a huge improvement. It had 142k miles on it and now has 157k...
Right now, with RUG, I get 20 to 21 MPG tank to tank of mixed driving.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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jimf909 
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7466
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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How do we know if we’re buying E85? I know some of y’all make this a consideration but I just drive to the top of the hill here and buy whatever Chevron is selling. Out on the road I stop at a Chevron or Shell or whoever is selling gas.
I’ve heard folks complaining for decades about how the new gas formulations rot the carb floats or the o-rings or the hoses and kills mpg but I can’t make a connection between gas and fueling issues.
Is there science behind the claims that e85 etc. are bad or is it just misplaced disgruntlement?
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22645
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:00 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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E85 should only be used in flex fuel cars which the Vanagon is not. Stoichiometry of E85 is about 9.7:1 so I doubt it runs well on stock ECU map.
There is some science on problems of ethanol gas ( which is about 10% ethanol vs the 85% of E85) but a lot more bs than science
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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Jimf909, there is only one station in my area that offers E85. The label says it contains a minimum of 51% Ethanol. Practically all stations in my area have labels displayed stating that all grades of fuel contain at least 10% Ethanol.
Abscate, sure, a Vanagon is not identified as a "Flex-fuel" vehicle. However, there is nothing in the fuel system of a Vanagon that will be damaged by the use of an Ethanol based fuel. The compression ratio is okay and since Ethanol burns cooler, exhaust valves will not be damaged.
In summary, as I stated my vehicle had been sitting for over 18 months (and no telling how long before it was taken to the garage). So, rather than wasting money and time on Heet treatment and other snake oil, I chose to use the E85. Apparently, just driving the Van more as well as use of the E85 "cleaned out" the cobwebs. And, as I also stated, I changed filters, oil, spark plugs, plug wires, distributer cap, set timing, Temp sensor, Ox sensor, etc., of which resulted in a better starting and running engine. However, it did still have a few hiccups occasionally.
I've probably burned 25 tanks of fuel containing E85 in ratios up to 100% of what was dispensed at the pump. So, I'm thinking the fuel system, especially injectors, should be much cleaner now and maybe the Intake valves have a little shine to them.. 
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22645
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
Jimf909, there is only one station in my area that offers E85. The label says it contains a minimum of 51% Ethanol. Practically all stations in my area have labels displayed stating that all grades of fuel contain at least 10% Ethanol.
Abscate, sure, a Vanagon is not identified as a "Flex-fuel" vehicle. However, there is nothing in the fuel system of a Vanagon that will be damaged by the use of an Ethanol based fuel. The compression ratio is okay and since Ethanol burns cooler, exhaust valves will not be damaged.
In summary, as I stated my vehicle had been sitting for over 18 months (and no telling how long before it was taken to the garage). So, rather than wasting money and time on Heet treatment and other snake oil, I chose to use the E85. Apparently, just driving the Van more as well as use of the E85 "cleaned out" the cobwebs. And, as I also stated, I changed filters, oil, spark plugs, plug wires, distributer cap, set timing, Temp sensor, Ox sensor, etc., of which resulted in a better starting and running engine. However, it did still have a few hiccups occasionally.
I've probably burned 25 tanks of fuel containing E85 in ratios up to 100% of what was dispensed at the pump. So, I'm thinking the fuel system, especially injectors, should be much cleaner now and maybe the Intake valves have a little shine to them.. |
I don't think it will damage anything but Im not surprised the mileage drops for the reason of having the wrong stoich. Remember, your ECU is trying to maintain 14:1 as it thinks it is getting pure gas but the ethanol fuel has a lot more oxygen in it.
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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Burning E85
-I notice a little slower start of the engine at cooler ambient temps (say below 50f).
-Less power on hills, even at WOT
-Much lower MPGs..... as much as 27% less as I stated previously.
Of course, all of the above is relative to the ratio of E85 to RUG in the tank. When I filled-up several times in a row with almost empty tank, the per cent of E85 got close to 100%. So, with the almost 100% E85 was when the effects were very noticeable.
Don't worry, right now, I'm running 100% RUG. The last tank of mixed driving, was just under 21 MPG. That's far better than when I first got the engine going right after purchasing the Van.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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24mpg on premium (which I rarely pony up for). Some was Real Gas™ but at $4.55 a gallon I only got $25 worth. The rest was whatever they call premium.
Filled up for the trip home with ethanol-free premium for a low less in Mazama, WA: $4.05/gallon.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
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Slate
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 59
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| Ahwahnee wrote: |
I'll post this here as it relates to mileage as much as anything...
This document looks at, among other things, how much horsepower it take to overcome drag at various speeds. In particular the table near the bottom of the page sums it up:
http://phors.locost7.info/phors06.htm
They say 'speed kills' -- wellsir, it definitely kills your mileage. I can imagine that our aerodynamically challenged vans are the worst case scenario for presenting drag at speed and suspect that driving habits (especially cruising speed) and headwinds play a huge part in the results we see. |
Thanks for the above link, although I knew the above the link (and all the associated pages really reminded me how little I know compared to those who do.. |
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Slate
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 59
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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With a fully loaded 1985 Westy powered with a 2000 Subaru EJ25 and 091 4 speed transmission towed a 1993 Suzuki Sidekick, combined weight 8020# (3,638kg) to the 2018 Syncro Solstice and got an adjusted/corrected 17.7 mpg (7.53kpl).
The actual trip mileage was 14.436 (6.14kpl) but a LOT of hours were spent idling at camp charging the battery while cooling down the fridge, due to no solar and a bad battery. I've calculated the idling time cost over 9 gallons, I don't have the number right here but believe me, I've done the numbers.
Bottom line, pulling grades increases engine performance even though the fuel consumption goes up, and the downgrades with a closed throttle more than make up for the poor mileage going up the hill. I ALWAYS get better mileage on long trips in mountainous country than I do in flat country, especially flat country with high winds like we often see out here.
On a side note, I always thought that the Vanagon radiator was oversized for the EJ-25 but this trip showed temperatures as high as 210 (99c), though typically 204 (96c), pulling grades with the AC off and with the radiator fan on high speed at about 80 degree (27c) ambient suggesting that the EJ25 can, and will, overload the radiator at higher ambient temperatures. This example was an EXTREME case though, so don't worry, just be aware. Normally, if the van is moving the temperature is rock steady at 172 (78c), which is frustratingly below it's 176 (80c) thermostat rating.
Pulling grades hard I ran between 3500 and 5500 rpm at about 50% to 60% engine load, my throttle linkage does not allow more which is okay with me. It's really nice not being limited to the 4000 rpm I held for (the perceived) long life of my 1.9l water boxer.
Granted, going up I did slow down some due to lack of power (but these grades are steep) but coming down off the hills now was real slow; "If you're using your brakes coming off a pass you're going to fast"
MAN, THE EJ-25 IN THE WESTY IS AMAZING
I'm worried that my transmission hates it though... Would like to know how hot IT got. Slate
The above data collected with the "GPS Logger application for Android" by: https://code.mendhak.com/
Since it's being used in a vehicle with power set to keep GPS on rather than off between log points. The .KML file is available via PM
Last edited by Slate on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Slimvest
Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2014
Posts: 431
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:08 am Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Slate your tranny was probably very hot and unhappy with that kind of weight and power. I'd get a cooler and filter on that thing as soon as possible. BTDT. |
Sort of what I was thinking. Impressive to haul all that through the Rockies though!
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'87 GL w/ Reimo top |
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Slate
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2014
Posts: 59
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Slate your tranny was probably very hot and unhappy with that kind of weight and power. I'd get a cooler and filter on that thing as soon as possible. BTDT. |
Yes Dave, I agree with you and did temper the driving out of regards to the tranny, although the radiator heat rejection also turned out to temper my driving. There was one exception to the drive I forgot and that is from above "Ken's Lake" to "Lake Oowah" I drove took the Sidekick off of the hook and pulled that mean hill with it being driven behind. That's that pink grade in the middle of the chart.
I need to add and get the tranny temperature readings and see what it takes to add cooling to the tranny, although we seldom tow. Probably on next years list. |
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jimf909
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7466
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| Paulbeard wrote: |
24mpg on premium (which I rarely pony up for). Some was Real Gas™ but at $4.55 a gallon I only got $25 worth. The rest was whatever they call premium.
Filled up for the trip home with ethanol-free premium for a low less in Mazama, WA: $4.05/gallon. |
Impressive! I did a similar loop last weekend: Seattle > Okanogon (90, 97) > Anacortes Ferry (hwy 20) > Lopez Island > Seattle and got 17 mpg. The Bostig and high-top are different from yours but I’ve never seen >18.5 mpg.
Happy summer!
_________________
- Jim
| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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| jimf909 wrote: |
Impressive! I did a similar loop last weekend: Seattle > Okanogon (90, 97) > Anacortes Ferry (hwy 20) > Lopez Island > Seattle and got 17 mpg. The Bostig and high-top are different from yours but I’ve never seen >18.5 mpg.
Happy summer! |
The Tiico with the latest ECU delivers good power and good fuel economy, from what I can gather. That and my slow and steady driving style… 🐢
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: What's your gas mileage / fuel economy? |
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Using a "quick and dirty" test method, (note odo reading, fill or top up 1/2 a tank etc.) I was seeing a nearly dead consistent 22 MP US gallon during 90% highway over flat, passes, driving at 50-65 MPH, head winds tail winds, side winds mostly at altitudes much higher than sea level if that matters.
81 Westy with ABA swap, stock WBX tranny, very close to stock OD tires.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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