Electric Fuel Pump: The Howling

[msinabottle]

Is it normal for an aftermarket electric fuel pump to be audible during normal running? Or am I in for a horrible shock? Winston's is not far behind the fuel filter, slung on the underside of his chassis.

Thanks!

[Randy in Maine]

Depends on if that howling is from:

1) some sort of cavitation (from a plugged filter or rust in the gas tank) which will eventually kill it. It should be cool to the touch. Try running the pump from a gas can to see if it quiets down).

2) is from a cheap ass pump and you need to check the pump prressure if you have not already. I only buy Bosch myself, even though they are $160 at BD.

3) if it is vibrating against the frame where it is mounted. You need the rubber mounting for it.

[shenan-agon]

Yeah, mine only makes noise when it's having trouble sucking fuel through - plugged upstream filter or gas tank outlet. Like Randy said, try running it from an external can...

[r39o]

The only time I hear my pump is when I turn the key on. I hear it twice, just like I should. But, that is it.

If you can hear your pump, something is not right. Do as suggested aboove.

An old trick is to measure the current. If it is high, compared to your standard fuse, then the pump is getting old.

I have been hearing the pump for years in another VW I have and have a new one waiting for the day it dies, but it has not happened yet. Since your Winston has been giving you fits, I suggest testing the pump pressure too and maybe delivery too. Then again a brand new pump is good piece of mind too.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[Tram]

Tram's World Famous Fuel pump Trick:
Remove fuel pump from vehicle. Get a 12v battery and hook some wires to your pump.
Submerge your pump in a container of clean diesel fuel.
Hook the wires up to the battery and run the pump for about 30 secs.
NOW, reverse polarity and run it BACKWARDS... Watch the crap spew out!
Reinstall your fuel pump on the vehicle. There's a 50- 50 chance it'll run quiet again, and you can put off buying a pump for awhile.

While you're at it, change the fuel filter, and after removing the gas cap, blow backwards thru the line to the tank with compressed air.

HINT: A defective fuel pressure regulator can make the pump scream.
Pull the vacuum line off the regulator and sniff it. If you smell fuel from the vacuum port, the regulator is either going or gone.
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[r39o]

Tram,

You da man. I like that. Mine is not making noise, but it sure would not hurt to clean it out. I think I may try that.

We have a bucket of random pumps. It will be good practice. If I get a good one, I then have a spare.

I also recall new pumps have this whitish grease in them. Did they stuff them with Lithium grease? Or what?

If I find a good couple of pumps I want to preserve them.

THANKS! That is REALLY useful!
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[msinabottle]

... and I wonder if that might have something to do with Winston's other problems. He's had his fuel tank pulled and purged repeatedly, I find from the previous owner's receipts. I'd like to pull all his old gas and put in fresh anyway, alas, there are still 8 gallons left in him and it's a bit much. Might do it anyway, somehow. As soon as he gets new gas he gets the new fuel filter waiting for him--that would be a good time to pull that fuel pump and do as you suggest. Must it be diesel fuel? Or would mineral spirits do?

MUCH thanks.

[Tram]

[mightyart]

What kind of fuel pump do you have? If you're still Fuel injected you should have a stock pump. The wrong pump could cause a bunch of problems, like Tram said. Trams diesel cleaning method is the best for a stock pump, don't submerge any other pump in diesel and hood it up, some aren't cooled buy the fuel, only use diesel for this, nothing else, it has a low flash point and good cleaning properties.
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[msinabottle]

Remember, I'm a newbie here. I thought it was aftermarket because it wasn't in the gas tank. Hey, my other car is a '70 Dart, I'm old fashioned. Anyway, that gets pulled and flushed this weekend.

Apparently, the previous owner had problems with Winston, too. He replaced the Hall Generator and the Idle Control unit and the 02 sensor. There's a lot of new stuff in the system, EXCEPT the AFM. I made a cursory search today for corrosion or loose connections, so easy to see with my nice, clean engine!

That howling fuel pump bothers me much. Winston's engine compartment ground and driver's side front ground ground onto the paint. I'll see if I can find those 'rough' grounding washers I've seen referred to, or at the least burnish down to bare metal and re-ground. I'll also be generous with the contact cleaner as I test every component I can figure out how to test.

Got his new K&N into him today, but he's still officially not road-worthy.

Sigh.

[r39o]

If you suspect the AFM, use an ohm meter and check it. Simple enough. Be sure to also test the connections at the ECU. If you go step by painful step, you will find it. It took 6 months on and off and now my Westy runs as good as it should.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[Dogpilot]

Be sure to check your fuel lines! I was insalling the relay kit this afternoon, and put the ignition on to test my work, and smelled fuel. The main supply line was seeping at a junction. I wiped it off and it didn't come back, ran the engine a while at idle, and it started seeping again after 5 minutes. I sliced off the two ends to put the clamps onto freash hose, and now all is well. IT could have been ugly.

Boy, putting in the relays made a difference in light ouptup. I origionally put on the SA grill and light and thought that was a nice improvement, but the relays made my lights about 50% brighter!

Cheers

[r39o]

The right headlamps and bulbs make all the difference when they are feed right. The headlmap relay kits are OK, except you make something much better yourself. What I made up can be reversed simply by plugging and unplugging stuff. No wires to cut and almost looks stock under there. It helps to have a few thousand dollars worth of special crimpers and the push pin tool for the connectors, but it sure is neat and works good. Used all factory style stuff, most of which was recyled from wrecked German cars.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[Dogpilot]

Its funny how on German cars, lots of parts are common across families of cars, and other parts that improve higher end models eaisly retrofit to the lower end models. If they had done that during the war, we may have ended up speaking German. Instead they used hand fitted over complicated kludges. We used brute engineered Sherman Tanks that went together like Lego. Funny how things change

[Tram]

[Dogpilot]

Germans were initially fixated on speed, the Spit could turn. You aim your guns by turning, not going fast. They also utilized their assets improperly, due to less that focused leadership. In the Japanese theater, it was all tactics. The Bushido code meant one to one in an honorable battle, we used the two plane lead and wingman setup. Our code; street fight, no rules. We managed to kill off the entire experienced Fleet Air Arm that way with pitifully outdated aircraft.

Bottom line, it was like karate and the crowbar.

The Vanagon reminds me of my landrovers (I've had eight of them). A special design that has a bit of magic about it. Mechanically, they have many flaws and bizarre design aspects. But you just got to love that something special about them. Besides, once you understand them mechanically, they are actually quite easy to work on and easy to get up on the step of reliability (with a bit of constant attention).

Cheers,
James

[Tram]

I'm just surprised that the electrical systems didn't fail or catch fire like they do in British cars.
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[Dogpilot]

ELECTRICAL THEORY OF SMOKE...BY JOSEPH LUCAS

Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.

When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e., say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires.

It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tires leak air and the British defense establishment leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electronics leak smoke.

Author Unknown


The Theory Explained through Discussion.

When wires smoke, how come the smoke is not the same color as the wire?

This is not completely true. When the smoke is in the wire, it is under pressure (called voltage). The pressure difference causes the color to change from the normal color we are used to. Not unlike the blood in our veins and arteries changing color due to the oxygen content. When the smoke escapes the wire and is exposed to air, the pressure is released, and the color reverts back to what we commonly recognize as smoke. The wire then changes to the color of the smoke that escaped.

I hope this helps you understand.


I would only question the last sentence of that description. It has been my experience that the wire turns a color directly opposite of the smoke.

Not always true, I think it must depend on the composition of the smoke in question.


I should have made it a little clearer; the color the wire becomes, is directly proportional to the escape velocity of the smoke. Higher velocities generate higher heat. This heat tends to burn the wire and affect the coloring. The statement was meant to be a generalization, indicating the fact that the color of the wire does in fact change. Sorry for the miscommunication.

I was speaking of electrical smoke which is generally white. The spent smoke casing generally assumes a color somewhat near black after the smoke leaves.

I can't stand it anymore! If, as you say, light bulbs suck up darkness and convert it to smoke which is transmitted (via wire) to a power source for recycling...why do car batteries go dead when lights are left on? Do car batteries (and flashlight batteries for that matter) have a limited amount of storage capability? Is it like a hard drive that gets so full that you have to double-space and then lose all data?

Now you're getting it.......

I thought you guys were smarter than this. Of course the battery stores the smoke. In fact it can store so much smoke that if you open the top and light a match, the resulting explosion can do serious damage. I'm sure you are aware that usually where there's smoke there's fire. If you connect the battery to a charger, the smoke is then returned to the wire (Remember, a light bulb wont work unless it is connected to a wire system) for the utility companies to use. Your hard drive analogy is a very good example.

Our hardware guys might be onto something in their quest for superior wiring. I have noticed the unique method of of series/parallel wiring the power strips on our systems seems to prevent the smoke from getting out of the wires. A "Smoke Loop" of sorts. In the case of the "smoked" workstation recently, you should notice that this was a conventional single power strip installation.

Since color is percieved by the cone shaped receptors in our eyes, and cones require more light that their rod shaped counterparts. Is the sky blue at night?

At night the process including contraction of the pupil is visual purple by which the eye adapts to conditions of increased illumination when facing 300 candle power redeflecting devices.

Since there is a spectrum of light that we as humans cannot see, I support the theory that everything is going up in smoke, we just can't see it. This may explain why the neighbors dog barks for no apparant reason.

I think your basic understanding of smoke systems is remarkable. However I find a flaw with your theory. The battery is a reusable storage device for smoke. therefore, one would assume that some sort of one way valve (we can call it a diode) should be needed to prevent pressure flooding back into the system while at rest. Unlike the A/C system, the smoke system is collecting darkness at the headlights and converting it to smoke. This causes the system to fill up. The battery can contain much higher pressures and volumes than the wires. If this pressure exceeds the capacity of the wire, it will cause a rupture as you described. The rupture can be controlled by a sacraficial device known as a fuse. But this still doesn't eliminate the problem. Perhaps a two way valve (zener diode) is used to allow a small amount of pressure to return to the system, and partially equalize. I find this theory unlikely though, due to the increase in the force required to start the pump (which is now under pressure) working again...

The smoke continues circulating through the system, due to the pressure differential in the battery (smoke pressure/vacuum reservoir). When the reservoir becomes depleted, the pressure simply equalizes everywhere in the system (similar to an A/C system when it's turned off) and stuff just wont work. Notice the relations: Work (W) = Force (F) x Distance (D); Force (F) = total difference in pressure (Dp) x Area (A). Therefore, the work done in a pressure system is: Dp x A x D. If the pressure differential (Dp) is reduced to zero then W = 0 x A x D = 0.

The smoke only escapes the wires when a path is created between the pressure differential areas (@ either the reservoir or the pump) that has too little restriction. When this happens, the smoke travels through the wires so fast that the friction between the smoke and the outer walls of the wiring heats the wires until they rupture. The smoke continues to escape until its pressure is equalized with the atmosphere, or until the conduit that provides the path between pressure areas is severed. When this happens, the sudden drop in pressure allows the wires to "collapse" slightly and, being soo hot, as the edges of the ruptures and severed ends touch, the material becomes fused, sealing the system and retaining the remaining smoke.

Don't forget, when the system is at rest, all the valves, (switches and relays) are closed, keeping the pressure areas separated. When restarting the pump, as long as everything is OK, the smoke pressure is equal on both sides of the pump and there is no net force on the pump when it begins operating again. Also, within the pump there are pressure/volume actuated one-way valves with restrictors built in, arranged in such a way that they keep excess smoke volume recirculating through an integral smoke loop, which maintains the pressure within manageable limits.

The excess smoke, created by the light/smoke converters (headlights and other darkness absorbing devices), is changed back to darkness and dissipated in small unit concentrations so its dark effect is not locally observed. The smoke pump impeller (stator), converts smoke into magnetic flux which does work on the engine. Some of the excess work energy is dissipated through the cooling system and exhaust in the form of heat, while the remaining work energy is converted back to smoke and distributed evenly in small concentrations as you drive. This maintains the total quantity of smoke in the system at an average that does not change over time.

[lordsniff]

There is a wisp of smoke curling lightly out of my ears .
Wonder what that means ?
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87 Syncro
85 Gl
96 Dodge Ram V10
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[r39o]

Geez.... this is way OT now.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)