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Stray Catalyst
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 534
Location: New England
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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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I recently swapped for a 74 std beetle that has been lowered - and the PO cut some corners, so I'm looking for advice on how to fix the problems. It has lowered spindles in the front and the rear is lowered via adjustment, IIRC. I'm not using this car as a daily driver, so I'm okay with hard suspension and the like if the alternative is lots of money.
Notice how close the front tires are to the fenders? Using the brakes brings the tires into contact with the fenders - is the simplest solution to get smaller tires (either diameter or width) or should I flare the fenders a bit for clearance? For time and money reasons, I'd rather not get a narrowed beam if it doesn't already have one. If different tires are the answer, I'd love to get a size that can fit onto these rims.
This car handles like a go cart. The small steering wheel (PO was too big to fit behind a stock wheel) is remarkably sensitive, much more so than I'm used to from previous (stock) bugs. The ride is firm - not comfortable, but more like a race car. It does corner well, not counting the front wheel dragging on the fender and acting like one brake. Is this harder ride an inevitable consequence of the ride height, or should I be looking for shorter Opel GT shocks, as mentioned earlier in this thread?
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196? Laser 917 Kit Car
1982 Vanagon Westy Diesel 1.6NA
1974 Sun Bug, lowered std Beetle
1969 Westy, mostly stock, the Road Trip bus. |
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peters3103
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2017
Posts: 13
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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I had a similar issue with my 68 after fitting drop spindles. Rubbing both side cornering and braking even driving solo with a near empty fuel tank. I was running stock 5” wheels with 165R15 tyres. Swapped to 145R15’s and now no issue at all even with passengers and a full tank. It’s the only option short of a narrowed beam.
Cheers
Pete
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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| peters3103 wrote: |
| Swapped to 145R15’s and now no issue at all even with passengers and a full tank. It’s the only option short of a narrowed beam. |
Agreed, this is probably your cheapest option to avoid rubbing. You could roll the fender lip to try and get some clearance, but with 165s it will likely still rub on hard turns or hard braking. On my beetle the rubbing point was well inside the lip. The friction caused the paint to bubble/peel.
The 145s are both skinnier and smaller diameter.
| Stray Catalyst wrote: |
| The small steering wheel (PO was too big to fit behind a stock wheel) is remarkably sensitive, much more so than I'm used to from previous (stock) bugs. |
The smaller steering wheel means less motion to get the same turn angle, but this could also be due to a change in caster.
Caster is the adjustment in the angle of the top and bottom pivot points for the front wheels. You want the top pivot point slightly behind (more rearward than) the lower pivot point. This provides steering self-centering and a resistance to turning away from center. When the front end of the car is lowered more than the rear is lowered you decrease the caster angle and make the front want to turn more easily. The correct caster angle is very small (IRRC, less than 1deg).
The fix is to add caster shims between the front beam head and the lower beam tube. This pushes the lower pivot point forward restoring the caster angle.
Check if you have a pair of crescent shaped shims like the one pictured below installed behind your beam:
If your car ride height is not noticeably "raked" you probably don't need caster shims and it just means you need to get your front end aligned.
| Stray Catalyst wrote: |
| Is this harder ride an inevitable consequence of the ride height, or should I be looking for shorter Opel GT shocks, as mentioned earlier in this thread? |
With a stock width front beam and lowered spindles your ride should be the same as stock.
Check your shocks. What make/model do you have installed?
It is common to install "performance shocks" in a attempt to make the car handle better. These are gas or gas/oil units and make for a very stiff front end. The Beetle front is much lighter than most small cars since the weight is biased to the rear making it even lighter. This means shocks that would provide a slightly firmer ride for most cars will result in a very stiff ride for a Beetle. It sounds like you want stock oil filled shocks.
Since you have dropped spindles you don't need Opel shocks. The benefit of dropped spindles are you maintain the stock suspension, including stock length shocks. Opel shocks are only needed when you have an adjustable front end and have lowered to the point where the stock length shocks will "bottom out".
The other thing to look at is the clearance between your lower ball joint and the ID of your wheels. Dropped spindles are notorious for causing the lower ball joint to rub the inside of non-stock wheels. It is usually not a problem for stock steel wheels, but alloy wheels are thicker and have a smaller ID. This pic show how little clearance there can be between the ball joint and the wheel when running dropped spindles:
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Stray Catalyst
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007
Posts: 534
Location: New England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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It's lowered 2.5 inches front and rear, if the PO is to be believed. It doesn't have the shims, but it looks level, the rear tires aren't rubbing. I'll get a front end alignment after I get the 145R15's.
In front, the tires are wide enough that they rub on the lip itself, leaving a sticky black mess. At least it's easy to reach for cleanup.
_________________
196? Laser 917 Kit Car
1982 Vanagon Westy Diesel 1.6NA
1974 Sun Bug, lowered std Beetle
1969 Westy, mostly stock, the Road Trip bus. |
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walter kandetzki
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Joined: June 02, 2003
Posts: 918
Location: Dillwyn, VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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I have a question.i have a 1968 beetle.i am using a 4" narrowed German beam with shock towers dropped disc brake spindles.i don't plan on driving the car slammed.now I read a article a few pages back about lowered ball joints not really being what they truely are and instead run STOCK German ball joints.is this true?thanks
Oh and rear is lowered a notch |
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Miklo
¡Chale!
Joined: August 27, 2008
Posts: 2058
Location: Antelope Valley, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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You only need “lowered ball joints” when slamming a Beetle extreme. Beam to the pavement.
Lowered balljoints allow for more moment as the slots in the balljoint are longer.
You’ll be fine with stock ball joints.
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✠Miklo✠
'55 Type1 "Ozma"
'66 Type1 "Charlotte" RIP
Antelope Valley's Mobile Air-Cooled Guru
| Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
| As I remember it, lowriding was not one of the criteria that Adolf gave to Dr. Porsche... |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76911
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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Actually, if all you're using is dropped spindles, your geometry is the same as stock. You can use the stock ball joints. You only need "lowered ball joints" when you beam adjusters and have it dropped all the way.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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walter kandetzki
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2003
Posts: 918
Location: Dillwyn, VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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| now since i have the 4"narrowed beam and dropped spindles will i need to run caster shims and the special camber adjuster or do i use the stock camber adjuster? |
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Miklo
¡Chale!
Joined: August 27, 2008
Posts: 2058
Location: Antelope Valley, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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True caster will depend on the final stance of the car. Front and rear.
Simply, If it’s raked out you will need a set of caster shims.
You will not need the “special camber adjusters”. Use the stock eccentrics.
_________________
✠Miklo✠
'55 Type1 "Ozma"
'66 Type1 "Charlotte" RIP
Antelope Valley's Mobile Air-Cooled Guru
| Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
| As I remember it, lowriding was not one of the criteria that Adolf gave to Dr. Porsche... |
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walter kandetzki
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2003
Posts: 918
Location: Dillwyn, VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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| awesome..thank you for your help |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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| walter kandetzki wrote: |
| I have a question.i have a 1968 beetle.i am using a 4" narrowed German beam with shock towers dropped disc brake spindles.i don't plan on driving the car slammed.now I read a article a few pages back about lowered ball joints not really being what they truely are and instead run STOCK German ball joints.is this true? |
The easiest way to think of dropped spindles and how they lower the front....
imagine you take a stock ball joint Beetle and you take a hacksaw to the front spindles. You cut the spindle shafts off the knuckle assembly and then weld them back on 2" further up on the knuckle. You have not changed anything else in the front suspension except where the wheels attach to the suspension. Since the wheels now sit up higher the result is the body drops lower. The shocks and all other suspension pieces have not moved at all so there is no change to the shocks and their range of motion or the ride.
This is different than when you install an adjustable front beam. These DO change the geometry of the front suspension. When using beam adjusters, imagine throwing 200lbs of cement bags into your trunk. The front suspension is compressed by the weight and the front of the body rides lower all the time. If you are running stock shocks they will bottom out when you hit bumps. This is because instead of the suspension resting around the midway point (50%/50%) between full compression and full extension the new "cement bag" compressed ride height has you sitting at a height where you have only 20% compression and 80% expansion.
The shocks will be the first thing that bottoms out. Then if you install shorter Opel shocks you will reach the point where the ball joints have reached their max rotation. To get any lower you will need "lowered ball joints" that give you a few more degrees of rotation.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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scottie_b205
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017
Posts: 10
Location: R.I.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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I have read whole thread and a number of others. I am looking for what brand of clearanced ball joints people are using and coming up empty. I see the empi brand and ones from Lastest Rage. I would like to know the brand you used and your experience/recommendation.
Thanks, Scott |
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sprbxr
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Sleepy Hollow
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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What is everyone using for front sway bars? I have a lowered sway bay but it still hits the ground. Car is not slammed.
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1957 Oval Ragtop
1974 Thing
1966 Deluxe
1959 Panel
1967 Vert
1959 Semaphore Ragtop |
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dubsteez79
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2017
Posts: 194
Location: star nc
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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74 standard
2 splines(I think) in the rear with 195 65 15's
adjustable 4.5 beam with dropped spindles and 135's
Gonna have to raise it to drive it anywhere but for looking pretty, its fine like this lol.
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dvancleve
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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Howdy folks.
This topic is WAY too long to read all of it, but I think I know what I want to do with my '68 based on what I did read. It currently has a 4" narrowed beam with adjusters, drop spindles, drum brakes, single castor shims and 135SR15 tires on stock wheels. I bought it this way, it looks cool but from my perspective has some issues. It looks to me like it is adjusted almost as high as it can go, maybe one notch higher on the Avis style adjusters. It steers great, the tires rub a bit on the insides but not outside. It scrapes the beam regularly, I usually can't get into my driveway without scraping. It rides like a dump truck. The 135s look cool, but they are about the size of fat bicycle tires and don't inspire a ton of confidence...
I plan to stay pretty low, but I need to be able to go (slowly) over speed bumps and get into my driveway. I think 145SR15 tires would be my preference (not interested in low profiles) but I'm not sure how well they would fit. I think a 2" narrowed beam would eliminate the inside rubbing and give a better ride, not ever going to put discs on it. I think the beam I have was set up for no drop spindles, I would get the new one so it could adjust up or down with drop spindles. Does this sound about right?
Thanks, Doug
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SparksLP
Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2009
Posts: 213
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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1966, stock beam and drop spindles. 185/60r15s on EMPI GT-5s (15x5.5, 3.75" backspace). Haven't driven much, but doesn't seem to rub anywhere.
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1966 VW Beetle Sunroof Sedan |
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Chris333
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Joined: July 30, 2017
Posts: 656
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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lol front 4" narrowed beam. Drop spindles, 3/4" pie cut in the front. Air shocks. Thru-rods replace the torsion bars. Rear pans flattened, converted to IRS (1968), air bags, torsion bars removed.
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iadubber
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Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 177
Location: Farley, IA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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| Chris333 wrote: |
lol front 4" narrowed beam. Drop spindles, 3/4" pie cut in the front. Air shocks. Thru-rods replace the torsion bars. Rear pans flattened, converted to IRS (1968), air bags, torsion bars removed.
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Is the rear custom trailing arms? I cannot see any way to get my IRS this low in the back without a hub raise. I don't have enough fab experience to do that on my own. Just seeing what you did to get it to lay out back there. |
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Chris333
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2017
Posts: 656
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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This is the rear before I made shock mounts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH9wrmbTPxM
The stock upper shock mount was cut off. Instead of notching the spring plates I cut away the part they stop against.
Also forgot to mention that I flipped the trailing arms as well to help reduce camber.
Since I've flattened the floor I can driver lower in the back, but my CV joints click like crazy. So soon I need to install Thing axles as they have 15 degrees more travel.
If I did it all over again I would do a 2" tranny lift. A few of my oil drain plate nuts now have scrape marks. |
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iadubber
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2010
Posts: 177
Location: Farley, IA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic |
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[quote="Chris333
Since I've flattened the floor I can driver lower in the back, but my CV joints click like crazy. So soon I need to install Thing axles as they have 15 degrees more travel.
If I did it all over again I would do a 2" tranny lift. A few of my oil drain plate nuts now have scrape marks.[/quote]
Do you have any rear shocks then? Or just moved the mount? I can get a little more lower on mine if I lop off the bump stop mount but then I'm limited by the shock length. I don't know what's involved in an IRS tranny lift. |
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