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Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic
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Mccurdy7778
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

legotech7 wrote:
I believe the leaves are omitted completely from the beam. If you do a search, there are beams already made with this bag set up you can purchase... If I remember correctly the leaves are replaced with thru rods.


So you use the through rods. Then do you just cut the upper beam, and attach the bag arm to the through rod? Do u just weld it to the through rod or is there some attachment? So then when u inflat the bag it twists the rod?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

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This is my 66 VW Beetle I just purchased .Im wanting to lower the front with 2.5 spindles and the rear with no modifications just changing settings on the splines.I will be purchasing the lowered ball joints & inner bearings everyone recommends and keeping the front drums.The roads aren't the greatest here in Canada so don't wanna go to low😄(Love the too low though).Can some people give some advice on this set up?Tire size on the car is 155SR 15ZX Michelin which I will leave on for now but want to put Fuchs or some radar rims and white walls in the future.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

You don't need lowered ball joints with drop spindles.
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coolbreezecorky
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

I've got a 74 std I'm getting ready to hammer I wanna keep the factory length beam just to be different and just run adjusters my biggest question is what angle to run the adjusters in to get a super amount of drop I already have spindles below is a pic of the stance I want.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:36 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

I think you will be hard pushed to get that low with a stock length beam and still be able to turn unless you use widen wings 2" would be ok with a stock length beam. If you are intending to stick with the stock beam just fit air shocks up front then you can slam it when parked and lift it to drive.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

coolbreezecorky wrote:
I've got a 74 std I'm getting ready to hammer I wanna keep the factory length beam just to be different and just run adjusters my biggest question is what angle to run the adjusters in to get a super amount of drop I already have spindles below is a pic of the stance I want.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You mention wanting to run a stock width beam with adjusters, but also mention you "already have spindles". Does this mean you have installed dropped spindles, or have purchased stock spindles???

You do realize that pic appear to be a '67 or maybe earlier Beetle with '67 front fenders? The '67-earlier fenders may allow more drop before the tires hit the fenders/headlight bucket. So that stance may not be possible for your '74.

Also, I have heard you can get more drop from the earlier linked-pin front end vs. the later ball joint front end. So if that is a pre-66 Beetle it may not be possible to get your '74 down that low.
Also note how the rear tires are cambered due to the swing axle rear end. Your IRS rear may have trouble getting that low and the tires will not camber out that much as the IRS suspension keeps the wheels more perpendicular to the road.

One other point to make... there is a limit to how far the front torsion arms can be rotated even if the adjusters can go further. This means that just rotating the adjusters further will not lower the car further. The limiting factor is the ball joints. There will be a point where the stock ball joints will stop articulating and you have reached the max amount of drop even though the adjusters have more room to rotate. Aftermarket "lowered" ball joints will give you a few more degrees which equate to a few more cm of drop.
Also, you don't want to ride with your front end fully dropped. You will have no compression in the front end. If you press down on the front it will not go down. This means you will feel every bump as you have a "solid" front suspension.

Droped spidles + narrowed beam + adjusters + "lowered" ball joints + wide fenders will get you the max drop in a ball joint front, but you may still not get the look you desire.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice guys yes I already have drop spindles I was wanting to go for a different look but yes the green one is a 67 I found it on google loved the way it set but I also have a bit different idea aswell that will not call for it being slammed that low it'll be more lowrider influenced
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

If I install 2.5 " lowered spindles would I be able to run 17"Fuchs replica rims?I believe the rims are 17x7 will they fit or do I need to get my beam shortened?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

Whats the best/easiest way to drop the rear end of a 73' standard beetle. I am planning to install the 2.5'' drop spindles as posted on this page but want the back end to come down a little as well to decrease the gap between the fenders and tires

Thank you in advance
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

take some time and read thru the stickies and FAQ's at the top of each forum
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=586687
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tasb wrote:
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.


sb001 wrote:
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

The green "Busted Knuckle Garage" beetle is a '67 beetle. It is pie cut, tranny has been raised, and it is an air ride.

It may or may not have flat pans, I don't remember.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

I have tried to get thru all 43 pages of this topic and I just cant do it. I have a 67 that i just want to lower the front with drop spindles. What else do I need besides the drop spindles?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

loser67 wrote:
I have tried to get thru all 43 pages of this topic and I just cant do it. I have a 67 that i just want to lower the front with drop spindles. What else do I need besides the drop spindles?

Welcome to the samba.
A set of caster shims will help the stability at highway speeds. I know, I did mine last weekend. Other than that, it's time to get greasy. If you do the caster shims you may have to re-index the steering box. When I did mine the horn would blow when I turned slightly left.
This is with 2.5" drop spindles.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Good Luck.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

stupid question hear Shocked so.. what is the stock ride hight? and where is it messured at?..
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

loser67 wrote:
I have tried to get thru all 43 pages of this topic and I just cant do it. I have a 67 that i just want to lower the front with drop spindles. What else do I need besides the drop spindles?

I believe the pre-'69 tie rod ends were smaller than the later ones. Most of the dropped spindle kits I have seen are for '69-later meaning they used the later style tie rod ends. So you may need two new outer tie rod ends for your car.

Are you planning to go with dropped drum spindles... or the more popular dropped disc spindles and upgrade to front disc brakes? Either may be more difficult for you as your '67 would have used wide-5 (5x205mm) wheels, so you will need a ball joint kit with wide-5 discs/drums. Even the drum kits... you need to make sure they will work with your drums. I think the later spindles used a different size bearing set. You may not be able to run stock wide-5 drums on the dropped spindles. You could buy later 4x130 drums, but they would look odd on your car, and you would need new wheels to match the drums.
Have you found a kits already? Maybe someone makes a dropped spindle kit for '67s? '66-'67 Beetles were the only years for wide-5 drums on a ball joint front end.

Additional items you may need...
    Longer front brake hoses. The distance from the end of the steel line to the wheel cylinder will be further away.

    Skinny tires... the dropped spindles tend to push the wheel out 0.5" on each side. For later models you often need to run 145x15 tires to fit in the fenders. But a '67 may have more space under the fenders as they are more like the earlier fenders.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:


Have you found a kits already? Maybe someone makes a dropped spindle kit for '67s? '66-'67 Beetles were the only years for wide-5 drums on a ball joint front end.

Additional items you may need...
    Longer front brake hoses. The distance from the end of the steel line to the wheel cylinder will be further away.

    Skinny tires... the dropped spindles tend to push the wheel out 0.5" on each side. For later models you often need to run 145x15 tires to fit in the fenders. But a '67 may have more space under the fenders as they are more like the earlier fenders.

I respectfully disagree with the information above. The spindle is is placed 2.5" higher on the steering knuckle. Not lower. Therefore the need for longer brake lines is not needed. On the drum brake backing plates, mine are the stock ones as well as the drums and bearings. My tire size is 165 R 15. And I have no rubbing issues. So skinny tires are not needed for the drum kit.
Where folks are having issues with lowering their car comes into play when they go the with the selecta drop route on the beam and wide 5 disc brake kits. Then things are more like you describe. Lowering ball joints, skinny tires, longer brake flex lines, caliper alignment issues, narrowed beams and on and on.....
Just my .02.
Have a great day.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

loser67 wrote:
I have tried to get thru all 43 pages of this topic and I just cant do it. I have a 67 that i just want to lower the front with drop spindles. What else do I need besides the drop spindles?

Every ball joint drop spindle kit I've seen uses the later inner wheel bearings, so you will need new inner front wheel bearings. The dropped spindles also all seem to use the later larger tie rod ends, so you will need the left and right outer tie rod ends. You will need a front end alignment after installing the new spindles.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
ashman40 wrote:
Additional items you may need...
    Longer front brake hoses. The distance from the end of the steel line to the wheel cylinder will be further away.

I respectfully disagree with the information above. The spindle is is placed 2.5" higher on the steering knuckle. Not lower. Therefore the need for longer brake lines is not needed. ...

I did say "may need". Wink
I discovered this when installing a dropped spindle disc brake conversion so it may not be as bad with drums, but the issue could still exist and should be taken into consideration for a drum install. It is more pronounced with the disc kits because the disc calipers are at the rear/trailing edge of the disc. In the below pic, when you make a right turn, the hose is stretched even further away from the inner mounting point. Depending on the model year the front drum wheel cylinder is either top of rear mounted on the backing plate (I think '67 is top mounted?). Top mounted is impacted less, but there is still a concern due to range of motion... read below..

This pic was the best I could find that illustrates the issue:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Ignore that this is a disc brake front end, but notice that the inner end of the left front brake hose is connected to a stationary bracket. This is where the steel line junctions with the flexible hose. Notice that the hose needs to be long enough to allow the front left drum to drop to its lowest (fully extended) position when you lift the front of car off the ground. If it was too short the rubber hose would eventually be pulled out of its fittings. The hose must also be long enough to reach the drum when the front suspension is in the fully compressed position (drum at its highest position). And, this is regardless of being in a left of right turn (if the hose connection point is at the rear of the backing plate, being in a turn while the suspension is compressed could require a greater length of hose).

For simplicity lets just say in the stock configuration the point where the bracket holds the inner end of the hose is exactly half way between lowest and highest point of travel when connected to the stock brakes and there is 1-foot of travel in either direction and the hose is just long enough to accommodate this travel in either a left of right turn.
Now as you pointed out the dropped spindles will move the spindle 2.5" higher up relative to the steering knuckle. But this is also 2.5" higher relative to the chassis where the inner hose bracket is located (this is how you get the 2.5" drop... the chassis is 2.5" lower to the ground). So now, instead of being half way between the drum's highest and lowest positions the inner mounting point for the brake hose is further away. The center point of the brake drum travel is around 2.5" higher than before and no longer centered around the inner bracket mount.
The deceptive part here is that when you lift the car off the ground you have plenty of excess hose because the inner mount point is now 2.5" closer to the lowest drum position than before. Previously the drum would rest below the bracket when the suspension is fully extended, but now it will be closer to the bracket leaving lots of slack in the hose. So you come away thinking there is plenty of hose slack. But do you have enough hose slack to allow the suspension to fully compress without binding the hose? Have you checked?
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

Thank you for the thorough explanation of what you posted and I "respectfully" disagreed with.
You should change your name to Professor ashman40. No sarcasm intended here.
FWIW the 67 front brake cylinders are centered at the rear of the backing plate. I'll measure the hoses in a bit and get back to you if there is a difference. I have one lowered 67 and a standard height one in the driveway.
Thanks for the schooling. Embarassed

EDIT
The brake lines on the stock height and 2.5" dropped cars are the same length roughly 13 1/4".
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Official "Ball Joint" lowering topic Reply with quote

Your picture concerns me a bit Ashman40. There are 4 lenghts of Beetle front flex hose I'm aware of, 350mm for 1968 up disc brake cars, 380mm for 1967 up drum brake cars, the odd 440mm hose for 1965 and 1966, and the 480mm flex hose for ovals through 1964. I've got a ball joint frame head sitting against a garage wall and what I notice is that the brake line brackets are angled down so the flex hose exits slightly towards the ground. It makes loop a little more generous but it looks like you need more still in that picture.
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