Is there a more "desirable" year for ghias?

[Nessal]

[jason_hamilton]

Well I have a '69, and it's a really great car. And if I ever really need that extra 6 horsepower I have a 1600 DP ready to go.

But I for one desire a 58/59 Cabriolet.
_________________
Jason Hamilton
1969 Karmann Ghia coupe
@MiddleAgedHoon

[RockStock]

the cut off is the external fuel filler!
post 67 is for lovers of black plastic & black vinyl!
'form and function'!
_________________
-StockRocks-

[retrowagen]

A few personal notes regarding 1967's:

I had one, put it back together after years of neglect in other ownership. The original 1,500 was toast, but I had a 1,641 DP lying around in my workshop ready to go (scheduled to go in my Formula Vee autocross car), so I installed that instead.

The "1967 only" inventory of parts on the car really wasn't too scary. When you think about it, 1966's have more one-year-only trim than does a 1967. 1968's have their fair share of one-year-only stuff, as well. I didn't find any dead ends in getting thie '67 back to stock (but I am used to Lowlights, so relatively speaking, it was quite easy). The hardest things to find for a '67 are, in my experience, the ignition lock assembly and those window winder cranks. I fab'ed up new winder cranks that looked original, had original rubber knobs, but were a bit more durable.

The '67 is a cool year. The KG took a pretty big leap towards modernity, but relative to its competition, wasn't outclassed and ancient yet. The front discs are nice. 12 Volts in one's electrical system are nice too. Lack of an external fuel flap can actually be a blessing (security reasons)--I didn't mind. Nor was lack of independent rear suspension a very big deal--most people don't drive near the point of danger where that would make any difference in the world.

When I think about the 1968-1971 vintages, my mind always wanders back to the fact that these were four of the five most plentiful years of production (around 30,000-plus units per year), which isn't too rare at all. I never could get past the aesthetic blunder of the 1969 (US market) rear side reflectors, alhtough I wouldn't mind having a 1969 (if only because I personally am a 1969 model...Oh, wait, if the Human model year begins August 1st, then I'm a 1970. Oh, nevermind! )
_________________
David Ruby
President, Karmann-Ghia World Club

[volksaddict]

Buy my 71!http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=225335
It's an original paint, unrusted, unrestored car, just over 100k verified miles, and delivered to your door for 5500!

[Bart Dunn]

[RockStock]

[RockStock]

[67 Florida Deluxe]

[lonotch]

When HotVW's did a monthly,year by year on Ghia's, they said the 1960 is the hardest ghia to restore due to the one year only parts. Ive never done a 60 so I can't say from experience, but my 59 hasn't been the easiest either.
_________________
It's not about the window, it's about the people.

German Folks

[Bart Dunn]

[coad]

I'll throw in for 1966 here. Classic early dash and bumpers, simplified interior helps make restoration easier, parts are available new and from a ton of early donor cars, and the one year only metal dash trim makes a 66 identifiable from 50 yards away.

[lemke]

I’m surprised that no one has posted this: http://www.house-of-ghia.com/q-n-a.html#71

From House of Ghia’s website, many of the different features of the various Ghia model years:

__________________________________________________________________________


Q #71: I'm looking for a Ghia to restore. I know it's often a matter of taste what year car to restore; but, what are the good points and bad points, as far as restoration goes, of the various years? And, what would be the best year to look for to fix-up?
Roger R., Orono, ME -- and lots of others

A #71: Wow! You ask a number of important, interesting questions. "Taste is a matter of personal opinion!" said the old lady, as she kissed the cow. Well, I'm about to introduce you to my personal herd of heifers concerning Ghias.

This response is broken down into three steps: Step 1) Information common to all body styles; Step 2) Information common to cabriolets (convertibles); Step 3) Information common to coupes.

Specific Information: (Common to all body styles)

Advantages: Karmann Ghias had lots of hand labor lavished on them. No car-a-minute assembly line for the folks at Karmann. And, the labor! It was applied by craftsmen. People with talent! So, where there is provision for adjustment, say, door glass movement, there's lots of adjustment. No bigger hammer needed here. Materials used (especially in the first decade) were superb. Take carpet! German square-weave carpet was expensive then, and is ruinously expensive today. But still, no better carpet. Lots of small parts take on the beauty, complexity and cost of jewelry. There's not one body part that will scream, "Cheap car, sleazy car. I'm merely a Beetle with a higher price tag."

Disadvantages: If a part didn't fit, say, a fender, the talented folk at Karmann would tweek it in place and COVER THEIR TRACKS with lead. The body appears perfect, not because of precision mating of highly accurate, precisely fitting parts; but because the skilled craftsmen at Karmann made the parts fit. "No two Falcons or Vegas are built the same"; is an accurate statement only in a philosophical sense. For Karmann Ghias, the statement is PHYSICALLY true, as you will quickly find when you try to transplant major used sheet metal components.

'56-'59 All Models

Advantages: Desirable! First of the breed. Many adore the classic droop snout front end and "tiny" taillites. Can be made to accept any engine and up to '66 transaxles easily. Most rubber seals for the body are available as at least semi-quality parts. Decent-looking interiors (but by no stretch of the imagination, stock upholstery) are readily available. Primo examples bring "big bucks".

Disadvantages: Scarce! Hard to find complete, good condition, running examples. Restoration costs are very high. Any missing parts will be difficult to find, but electrical / lens parts are especially rare (read expensive). True assembly line interior fabrics, vinyl, and mats are non-existent. On cars you want to restore, the interiors need to be "perfect" -- highly unlikely; or you MUST compromise and use a make-do / look-good fabric alternative. Only twenty-two thousand droop snout, '56-'59 Ghias were sold in the U.S. Over 50,000, '55-'57 T-Birds were sold and they're considered scarce. No wonder early Ghia parts are hard to find. Stock machines use a non-synchro low gear. You would not want to make a cross-continental trip in a 36 hp stocker. Heating / defrost system is barely worthy of the name on any Ghia, but rust can make this era Ghia a gas chamber. Mechanical parts are increasingly scarce; and 36 hp engine stuff is hard to get. Few body parts interchange from other year Ghias (or other model VW's). Nearly impossible to restore to better than a 80 or 85 point car. The label "rare" has fallen on all cars of this era, when, in fact, only cars that approach the "first" label command hefty premiums: i.e., the first coupe made; the first convertible assembled.

'60-'66 All Models

Advantages: Cars needing restoration are easy to find. Restoration costs can be moderate. Easy to make into 85 to 90 point restored stocker! Quality body seals, mechanical parts, and (from '61-up) electrical parts are relatively available. Body parts from other year Ghias can often be readily adapted. Mechanically identical to same year Bug. Later mechanical components, i.e., engine, transaxle, etc., can often be easily / cheaply grafted to these years.

Disadvantages: Nearly impossible to bring back the classic "farmer's field", "needs-total-restoration" Ghia to more than a 90 point stocker. Gaining the last 10 points needed for a 100 point show restoration isn't just a matter of having deep pockets -- the parts may not exist. Headlite and parklite items are scarce. Stock interior and exterior mirrors are a pain to find. Nearly a dozen shades of vinyl arm-rests were used on these years, so finding correct colors and patterns of interior upholstery is virtually impossible -- your chance of winning the lottery is better. All parts that wear -- door hinges, striker plates, wiper shafts, etc. -- probably need replacement.

'67 All Models

Advantages: Large numbers of people think this the best year ever, because of its first's: 12 volts; disc brakes; an engine powerful enough you'd want to take it on a transcontinental trip. Make fine restro-rods.

Disadvantages: Extremely high number of critical one-year-only parts. Living with a semi-stocker can be a pain. Restoring a dilapidated car to museum quality could be impossible. Locating electrical items, relays, locks, mirrors, dash and some door parts could take the patience of a Saint and the financing of a Midas. Physically will not accept much wider wheels / tires than stock.

'68-'69 All Models

Advantages: Easiest Ghia (along with '70-'71 models) to rebuild or restore. Has a "stock" 12V electrical system, disc brakes, a powerful engine (1500 cc), and '69, and later, has IRS (Independent Rear Suspension). Interiors were of only three basic fabric colors, making renewing the interior much easier. Most cars of this era, or newer, are basically intact. Basket cases, project cars or semi-complete Ghias are much less likely in this age group. These cars still have the "classic" look, i.e., no bulldozer bladed bumpers or thigh-sized taillite lens.

Disadvantages: Round side reflectors hard to come by. Auto-stick cars are so disliked by most restorers, it can badly damage the value of a car with automatic. (Also holds true of auto-stick Ghias thru 1974.) Safety and pollution equipment begin showing up. Some states are much more diligent about requiring working pollution equipment. However, virtually all pollution devices requiring only occasional repair or maintenance are non-existent in the VW parts system or elsewhere in a form or appearance that would be assembly line original the very part some state pollution laws say MUST be operational. That's right! The old "Catch 22" dilemma: It's not available at any price, but you must have it at all costs.

'70-'71 All Models

Advantages: Shares most advantages of '68-'69. Larger taillites and parklites, some feel, are a safety factor.

Disadvantages: Park and taillite assemblies are often expensive to replace. Parklite bulbholders are very prone to corrosion damage. All bumpers for any Ghia are hard to find, expensive. '70-'71 rear bumpers are unique to those two years and so, are doubly rare. Rear reflector parts (that thing below the tailite) are so hard to find, House of Ghia's advice is: Remove the reflectors and fill in all mounting holes.

'72-'74 All Models

Advantages: Controls are Americanized. No longer does the driver need to be an octopus to operate everything. Coupes having seals in good shape are the tightest, most weather-resistent Ghias. Huge taillites, some feel, are a safety factor.

Disadvantages: Some seals (coupe door and quarter window seals, and all era window scraper seals) are very expensive and may not be available at any price. Late engine compartments are infested with a host of wires and hoses. Even VW doesn't remember how some of these hoses connected. Shares electrical / light problems with '70-'71 cars. Surprisingly, it is more expensive, more difficult to restore (or even get road-worth) this era Ghia than, say, '68-'69 models. Lots of buffs are completely turned off by the square-bladed bumpers and bigger taillites.

Specific Information: (Common to cabriolets)

Advantages: All years cabrio. All Ghia cabriolets share a world class, stunningly engineered, amazingly complex, Karmann designed, cabriolet top. Thirty-five years later, folding tops even in today's 100,000 dollar plus price range don't come any better. The advantage of a cabriolet top over a mere Detroit style convertible top is they are quieter, vastly more wind and weatherproof, and warmer. Why? Because cabriolet tops are padded and lined.

Disadvantages: All years cabriolet. The downside of cabriolet ownership? Cost! Seldom can any Ghia 'vert owner replace a "top" for under $2,000. (You don't believe it? Add up the cost of an outer cover, all the bows, cables, headliner, top padding, and replacable bushings. Then, price having the parts professionally installed! Big Bucks! ) Ah ha! You're thinking of a "do-it-yourself top installation to save major money! Don't! That's the flaw with a world class, state-of-the-art cabriolet top. You can't install the top even if you want bragging rights to the statement, "I restored the car completely All by myself." The cheap side of your personality is still in command and you ask, "Why can't I save a lotta bucks and eliminate the padding and headliner. I'll have a top just like those on American convertibles!" Nope! You'll end up with a noisy, cold, drafty convertible with major re-sale problems. Ghia convertibles / cabriolets are very prone to rust. Their very construction makes them, when the top is down or missing, a bathtub. Rocker rust can destroy any Ghia's structural strength in a hurry. But, without the strength added by a coupe's metal roof, convertibles can positively quake, moan and vibrate "Big Time"!

'58-'59 Cabriolet Only

Advantages: Truly rare. Only two years of 'vert shared the "droop nose" styling. Some very nice early convertibles fetch disgustingly large amounts of money: nearly 10 times what the cars cost new and often 4 times what a similar condition coupe brings.

Disadvantages: Some top parts show up on only these two years of Ghias, making these parts the rarest of the rare. Stock tops were canvas, adding to the expense.

'60-'67 1/2 Cabriolet Only

Advantages: Top and top frame parts are adaptable from any '58-'69 1/2, making most items at least available. Sturdy vinyl tops show up first on this era 'vert. So, for practicality, as well as authenticity; a less expensive vinyl top becomes a true option.

Disadvantages: The junction between top fabric and body metal was covered by a large, chromed, "U"-shaped joint cover or molding. By now, the true assemblyline piece has disappeared, replaced by a cloth "hide-um" strip. ("Hide-um" is the only major American convertible top idea, proving to be superior to the way Karmann did it.) These moldings are hard to find. An incredible number of 'verts have a bad or missing crank handle. At some point in the past, the crank handle was lost, or was removed because it had the "floppies". A mental midget thought the solution to opening a handleless top was to clamp pliers or vice grips on the fragile serrations of the top crankshaft. Someone just made a $400 boo-boo!

'67 1/2 - '69 1/2 Cabriolet Only

Advantages: These 'verts are the first Ghias with a cable holding the top cover to the rear of the body. A great idea!

Disadvantages: The top crank mechanism found in the center of the header on these, and all earlier 'verts, continues to cause expensive grief. If this crank has stripped gears, rusted hooks or rounded handle shaft serrations, replacement could be pricey.

'69 1/2 to end of '69 Cabriolet Only

Advantages: This convert, produced for only 1/2 a year, sports a glass rear window AND classic early styling. Ever after, Ghia convertibles used bigger, more awkward-looking tail and park lites.

Disadvantages: See '70-'74 disadvantages.

'70-'74 Cabriolet Only

Advantages: Glass rear window.

Disadvantages: Glass rear window. Without maintenance, and a correctly installed top cover, a glass rear window introduces a massive hole for water to enter the car. All parts associated with the window itself such as the glass are breathtakingly expensive; and some absolutely critical parts may not be available at any price. The wooden header is hung from a complex thin metal plate -- the junction cover. The plate easily rusts. Replacements are expensive, and any short-cuts one takes in this critical area, become doubly expensive in the long run.

Specific Information: (Common to coupes)

Advantages: All years of coupe. Styling-wise, Karmann Ghia coupes used a very clean, "postless hard top look". A decade before other design capitals caught-up: Ghias became the first major "hardtop coupe" without a front vent window.

Disadvantages: All years of coupe. Because of the roof's shape, Ghia coupe headliners aren't much bigger than a baby's diaper. Worse, reinstalling a headliner, once damaged, is a major task that merely begins when all of the glass is removed from the car. I'm not trying to alarm anyone, but the roof of a Ghia coupe, when the car turns upside down, will collapse faster than a souffle. (This is true of most cars designed before the mid-'80's.)

'56-'59 Coupes Only

Advantages: Year specific coupes. Visually, the most pleasing "profile" with a very slim post between door and quarter window.

Disadvantages: Year specific coupes. Quarter window does not open or pop-out. Quarter window post and seal work well when all components are new; but if say, the hinges get sloppy; closing the door can badly damage seal and post. Glass and post are expensive, hard to find.

'60-'65 Coupes Only

Advantages: Quarter window glass now opens, or "pops out", at the back edge. Sealing problems associated with door hinge wear have generally been solved.

Disadvantages: The wider chrome "divider post" adds stoutness to the window sealing problem at the expense of a visually clean look. The "knee action lock" or clasp allowing the rear of the window to be held rigidly in the "pop-out" position is a clever design. But, in order to share components throughout the VW empire, 90% of the locks parts are borrowed. Of course, the 10% of the lock uniquely Ghia is of a flawed design. It easily fails if abused. Also, the plastic "hinge" blocks at the leading edge of the quarter window glass tend to crumble with age. Crumbling hinge blocks mean a loose piece of glass. More than a dozen customers have said, "I was just driving down the road when the front of the quarter window fell out of the post and pivoted along the flank of the car. I'd have still been all right, and been able to save the glass; but now, it was hanging from that chrome lock thing, and the foot of the lock broke. Next thing I knew, the glass was shattering into a million pieces on the pavement."

'66-'71 Coupes Only

Advantages: Designed for heated rear window.

Disadvantages: May actually have a heated rear window. These first generation heated rear windows used a type of tape dusted with copper granules. The purpose was to have these grains, shoulder to shoulder, act like a copper wire and conduct electricity. However, even the most micro-scopic scratch can cause a Grand Canyon-sized breach to the flow of electricity. Once a determined customer, armed with test equipment, metered every used heated rear window in the shop. Twenty-five duds. Then, he tested every car in the yard. Another 25 flawed heating elements. Not one working heated rear window. If you think Ed McMahon has ten million dollars just waiting for you, then try to find a working heated rear window. The rest of us know better! We'll spend our effort on some achievable goal like catching the Loch Ness Monster.

'72-'74 Coupes Only

Advantages: The tightest, most weatherproof Ghia coupes ever made. Installation of door seals is a snap.

Disadvantages: To achieve simple assemblyline installation, the seals became much more complex. Yep! That translates as more expensive.

Side Note: Many states give antique, or old car, status to vehicles that are twenty-five, or more, years old. Often, old car status means nothing more than the right to carry a special license plate. But, in a few states, licensing and / or title fees, mandatory insurance and especially requirements for meeting pollution laws are cut back or entirely eliminated for these "elderly" vehicles.

Knowing your state's laws may make an earlier car that has passed the "antique" threshhold more desirable than a later car still enduring regulation.

[retrowagen]

[NOVA Airhead]

I would disagree with the assessment of the Autostick. I have one in my 70 KG 'Vert and it works fine. Its essentially the same transmission as the manual. Once you understand how it works, its not that difficult to deal with. It is an interesting piece of engineering.

The transmission received a bad rap in the past due to the manner in which VW marketed and presented it. I think the days of it being spurned are a thing of the past. I believe AS cars will become desirable going forward for the following reasons:

1. Scarcity - Only about 10% of production was AS. In '70 there were about 5,500 verts produced. If 10% of production was AS, this means there are very few left today - I would estimate 200 70 AS 'vert cars at most.

2. More than 90% of cars produced in the US are Automatics. You have a generation that has never driven a manual.

3. Geezer factor - As the baby boomers age, their bodies are less able to deal with a manual due to arthritis and other age-related conditions. However, these people have the disposable income and nostalgia for a car from their youth. The AS looks attractive to these people.

Certain parts are getting a bit scarce for AS cars so that is a concern that I will deal with at some point.

All this is just an opinion. I am wrong at least as often as I am right. If I really could predict things, I suppose I would be driving a vintage Testarossa rather than a Ghia!
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Ghia Owner Emeritus

[Braukuche]

[retrowagen]

[kingkarmann]

I suppose I'm also partial to the 67. It's the first car I owned. And I'm currently doing a 67 resto-custom. Not because I can't find parts,on the contrary I have not had that much difficulty thanks to the on-line auction sites . I think rare and nos are words and phrases that are overused anyhow, thanks to the on-line auction sites.
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"Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”

Mike Gerson

What is your "Bespoke Reality"?

[HBH72]

[RockStock]

hey, it appears we all like what we all have already!
how cool is that?!

'the absence of desire, of wanting, brings happiness'
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-StockRocks-