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allsidius Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010 Posts: 1475 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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Exciting to discuss the headlights again, this was always a special interest to me. The Adler connection sounds probable.
The main features of the interface is the slope angle of the unit, about 26 degrees to the vertical plane, which I am sure is in the documentation somewhere, and the a and b axis of the ellipse for the ridge of the fender, holding the headlight. These numbers were set by an engineer at some date in 1937.
Puzzling that they still considered using yet another design as late as May 26, 1938, since standard units had already been bought for the two other prototypes. Seems to me that Ferdinand was not too concerned about the 990 RM selling price at this stage.
I must say that the heavy duty rings on 303/1 were a little too blingy for my taste. The balance is much better with the actual production units.
I took the angle off an engineering drawing of a split I have in my office. By the way, the spare tire is drawn at exactly the same angle! _________________ 1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Last edited by allsidius on Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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allsidius Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010 Posts: 1475 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:55 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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The elusive Volvo Carioca - swedish contender in the streamlining contest and also possible early user of the sloping beetle headlights.
This is the mockup of the Volvo Carioca, photo taken in 1935! The angle looks a few degrees more vertical, but the design is uncannily similar. The actual production car got different lights, consisting of a stock headlight framed by a sculpted ornamental chrome ring.
_________________ 1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Blue Baron VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006 Posts: 23760 Location: Southeast USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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The headkights of the T-77 Tatra prototype look a lot like the headlights of the V-303 No. 1. This car could also be considered
a major design influence on the Beetle. Look how they even streamlined the door hinges!
I never get tired of this stuff! _________________ We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7839 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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it occurred to me the other day that as the adler's headlights in '37 were deemed so inefficient, requiring another lamp to be mounted on the front of the car, there needed to be further development of the sloping lens. maybe this caused delays and/or uncertainty over their use on the vw? _________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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andybla Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2014 Posts: 630 Location: BE
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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This link has a lot of misinformation.
Quote: |
The Czechs sued Porsche after the war, they won, Porsche paid three million Marks to the Czechs. |
"Settlement" of a lawsuit isn't the same as "winning." VW settled in 1965 for 1M DM.
Quote: |
Ferdinand Porsche never spent a single second in prison while developing numerous military vehicles for Hitler. |
Ferdinand spent 22 months in a French prison, and was found not guilty of the French charges.
I trust nothing else on a website so factually flawed in favor of the Tatra folks and against VW folks. Too bad, since the truth is very interesting without the lies and exaggeration. |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7839 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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I've sent him an email highlighting the errors and supplying facts - although probably wasting my time.
this covers the patent case:-
patent infringements were upheld over aspects of air-cooling, engine mounting and transmission. these are the facts:-
Tatra did not sue VW and did not get the compensation. It was the Ringhoffer family, who owned the Tatra works in the 1930's, who had moved to Germany after the 2nd World War and who held the patents. Ledwinka had no ownership to the patents although he probably was the brain behind them.
The settlement was not 3 million DM, it was 1 million DM.
also corrected the photo caption (porsche type 32 not tatra), ledwinka's prison term (5 years not 10) and porsche's imprisonment (over 51 million seconds)
not sure why he wrote this on a website devoted to aspects of amsterdam...? _________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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GArBa Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014 Posts: 2103 Location: Milano, Italy
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Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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finster wrote: |
(over 51 million seconds) |
well played, this made me laugh so hard I almost fell from the chair.
btw, a similar design to the early beetle prototype headlights was also used on the 1935 Fiat 1500, manufactured in Germany as NSU-Fiat 1500 by the former NSU car plant. That may have had an influence, too. _________________ cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
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moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7839 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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here's a photo of aforesaid fiat
_________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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GArBa Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014 Posts: 2103 Location: Milano, Italy
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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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Let's also add that the Fiat 500 "topolino" (developed between 1934 and 1936, chassis and powertrain designed by Dante Giacosa, body by Rodolfo Shaeffer) followed sort of a reverse path. It was initially designed to have a much beetle-like headlamps arrangement in its first "Zero A" prototype:
then switched to a 1500-like front for its pre-production prototype allegedly because the illumination provided with the flush lamps was deemed insufficient and the aim problematic:
and ultimately to the pod units used in the production model, again for the same reasons (apparently)
Source of the information:
Dante Giacosa - "I miei 40 anni di progettazione alla Fiat" - Automobilia, 1979.
English Edition: " Forty years of design with Fiat" - Automobilia, 1979
Currently re-published as a free Pdf by Centro Storico Fiat at the following links:
Italian Edition:
https://www.fcagroup.com/it-IT/SupportFiles/Docume...a_Fiat.pdf
English Edition:
https://www.fcagroup.com/en-US/SupportFiles/Docume...h_Fiat.pdf _________________ cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
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finster Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2012 Posts: 7839 Location: north o' the border
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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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interesting, and backs up my theory that lens development and improved efficiency could have been the reason for uncertainty in using them for the kdf... _________________ "we're here on Earth to fart around" kurt vonnegut
nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect... |
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allsidius Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010 Posts: 1475 Location: Norway
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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GArBa wrote: |
Let's also add that the Fiat 500 "topolino" (developed between 1934 and 1936, chassis and powertrain designed by Dante Giacosa, body by Rodolfo Shaeffer) followed sort of a reverse path. It was initially designed to have a much beetle-like headlamps arrangement in its first "Zero A" prototype:
then switched to a 1500-like front for its pre-production prototype allegedly because the illumination provided with the flush lamps was deemed insufficient and the aim problematic:
and ultimately to the pod units used in the production model, again for the same reasons (apparently)
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wow, i always found the topolino pretty cute, and they likely made the right call as far as production and repair friendliness goes, but the second prototype looked awesome. _________________ regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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Undis Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006 Posts: 1396 Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question |
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I have another likely contender. The BMW 328 sports car of 1936–1940 in its roadster and Mille Miglia forms had headlights that appear really close to the ones used on the VW. Especially the earlier 1937 models had a thick bezel ring and no tab on the lower part of the ring looking really close to the V303/1 version. Interesting to note that some contemporary restorations appear to have VW headlights fitted suggesting that the headlight units were interchangeable (similar to the Adler Autobahn).
What if the headlights of the V303/1 were modified 1937 BMW units?
_________________ Check out my Facebook page: Volkswagen Prototypes. |
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