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Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question
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allsidius
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

Exciting to discuss the headlights again, this was always a special interest to me. The Adler connection sounds probable.

The main features of the interface is the slope angle of the unit, about 26 degrees to the vertical plane, which I am sure is in the documentation somewhere, and the a and b axis of the ellipse for the ridge of the fender, holding the headlight. These numbers were set by an engineer at some date in 1937.

Puzzling that they still considered using yet another design as late as May 26, 1938, since standard units had already been bought for the two other prototypes. Seems to me that Ferdinand was not too concerned about the 990 RM selling price at this stage.

I must say that the heavy duty rings on 303/1 were a little too blingy for my taste. The balance is much better with the actual production units.

I took the angle off an engineering drawing of a split I have in my office. By the way, the spare tire is drawn at exactly the same angle!
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Last edited by allsidius on Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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allsidius
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

The elusive Volvo Carioca - swedish contender in the streamlining contest and also possible early user of the sloping beetle headlights.

This is the mockup of the Volvo Carioca, photo taken in 1935! The angle looks a few degrees more vertical, but the design is uncannily similar. The actual production car got different lights, consisting of a stock headlight framed by a sculpted ornamental chrome ring.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Blue Baron
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

The headkights of the T-77 Tatra prototype look a lot like the headlights of the V-303 No. 1. This car could also be considered
a major design influence on the Beetle. Look how they even streamlined the door hinges!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I never get tired of this stuff! Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

it occurred to me the other day that as the adler's headlights in '37 were deemed so inefficient, requiring another lamp to be mounted on the front of the car, there needed to be further development of the sloping lens. maybe this caused delays and/or uncertainty over their use on the vw?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

https://www-dedokwerker-nl.translate.goog/tatra_t8...tr_pto=nui
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

andybla wrote:
https://www-dedokwerker-nl.translate.goog/tatra_t8...tr_pto=nui


This link has a lot of misinformation.

Quote:
The Czechs sued Porsche after the war, they won, Porsche paid three million Marks to the Czechs.

"Settlement" of a lawsuit isn't the same as "winning." VW settled in 1965 for 1M DM.

Quote:
Ferdinand Porsche never spent a single second in prison while developing numerous military vehicles for Hitler.

Ferdinand spent 22 months in a French prison, and was found not guilty of the French charges.

I trust nothing else on a website so factually flawed in favor of the Tatra folks and against VW folks. Too bad, since the truth is very interesting without the lies and exaggeration.
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finster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

I've sent him an email highlighting the errors and supplying facts - although probably wasting my time. Rolling Eyes
this covers the patent case:-
patent infringements were upheld over aspects of air-cooling, engine mounting and transmission. these are the facts:-
Tatra did not sue VW and did not get the compensation. It was the Ringhoffer family, who owned the Tatra works in the 1930's, who had moved to Germany after the 2nd World War and who held the patents. Ledwinka had no ownership to the patents although he probably was the brain behind them.
The settlement was not 3 million DM, it was 1 million DM.

also corrected the photo caption (porsche type 32 not tatra), ledwinka's prison term (5 years not 10) and porsche's imprisonment (over 51 million seconds)

not sure why he wrote this on a website devoted to aspects of amsterdam...?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

finster wrote:
(over 51 million seconds)


well played, this made me laugh so hard I almost fell from the chair.

btw, a similar design to the early beetle prototype headlights was also used on the 1935 Fiat 1500, manufactured in Germany as NSU-Fiat 1500 by the former NSU car plant. That may have had an influence, too.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

here's a photo of aforesaid fiat
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

Let's also add that the Fiat 500 "topolino" (developed between 1934 and 1936, chassis and powertrain designed by Dante Giacosa, body by Rodolfo Shaeffer) followed sort of a reverse path. It was initially designed to have a much beetle-like headlamps arrangement in its first "Zero A" prototype:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


then switched to a 1500-like front for its pre-production prototype allegedly because the illumination provided with the flush lamps was deemed insufficient and the aim problematic:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and ultimately to the pod units used in the production model, again for the same reasons (apparently)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Source of the information:
Dante Giacosa - "I miei 40 anni di progettazione alla Fiat" - Automobilia, 1979.
English Edition: " Forty years of design with Fiat" - Automobilia, 1979

Currently re-published as a free Pdf by Centro Storico Fiat at the following links:

Italian Edition:
https://www.fcagroup.com/it-IT/SupportFiles/Docume...a_Fiat.pdf

English Edition:
https://www.fcagroup.com/en-US/SupportFiles/Docume...h_Fiat.pdf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

interesting, and backs up my theory that lens development and improved efficiency could have been the reason for uncertainty in using them for the kdf...
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allsidius
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

andybla wrote:
https://www-dedokwerker-nl.translate.goog/tatra_t8...tr_pto=nui


This link provides 100% misinformation and lack of understanding of both VW and Tatra design, as well as the Ringhoffer family politics.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

GArBa wrote:
Let's also add that the Fiat 500 "topolino" (developed between 1934 and 1936, chassis and powertrain designed by Dante Giacosa, body by Rodolfo Shaeffer) followed sort of a reverse path. It was initially designed to have a much beetle-like headlamps arrangement in its first "Zero A" prototype:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


then switched to a 1500-like front for its pre-production prototype allegedly because the illumination provided with the flush lamps was deemed insufficient and the aim problematic:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and ultimately to the pod units used in the production model, again for the same reasons (apparently)
...


wow, i always found the topolino pretty cute, and they likely made the right call as far as production and repair friendliness goes, but the second prototype looked awesome.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest design influence for the beetle trivia question Reply with quote

I have another likely contender. The BMW 328 sports car of 1936–1940 in its roadster and Mille Miglia forms had headlights that appear really close to the ones used on the VW. Especially the earlier 1937 models had a thick bezel ring and no tab on the lower part of the ring looking really close to the V303/1 version. Interesting to note that some contemporary restorations appear to have VW headlights fitted suggesting that the headlight units were interchangeable (similar to the Adler Autobahn).

What if the headlights of the V303/1 were modified 1937 BMW units?

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