Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
Jump to:
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
so i already own the stock original TO bearing as well as this one.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

That is a '71-later TO bearing. Without some mods it won't fit your stock '65 T1 transmission.

Post pics of your transmission bell housing with release arms.
Post pics of the PP and the clutch disc you have.
Post pic of your flywheel with diameter of the clutch disc surface with a ruler showing the diameter measurement in mm (180mm or 200mm?). Some of these components may work with your '65 transmission, but you will likely need to buy some parts to make up for the wrong ones you have.


Or you can review the pages of this thread and you will find all the details you need. I just went back to page#1 and the pics are all there in Glenn's original post. If you cannot see them it is likely something filtering them from your view in your browser or a firewall between you and the website.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Chickensoup
Samba Member


Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
Chickensoup is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

What the hell!! I swear to God the pictures weren't working last night. Glenn must of fixed them for me Very Happy. I think I get it now, but I can post pictures if I'm still wrong.

12v chromoly forged 200mm flywheel, from CB
200mm clutch pad
Late model PP
Centering ring for the PP
Stock 65 TO bearing and shaft

Sound right?
_________________
-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
What the hell!! I swear to God the pictures weren't working last night. Glenn must of fixed them for me Very Happy. I think I get it now, but I can post pictures if I'm still wrong.

Just the nature of the commercial Internet. Wink


Chickensoup wrote:
12v chromoly forged 200mm flywheel, from CB
200mm clutch pad
Late model PP
Centering ring for the PP
Stock 65 TO bearing and shaft

The smaller diameter of the PP centering ring could cause interference with the long snout on some clutch discs. Check for this since you bought the disc meant for a non-centering ring PP. It may not be a problem, but you need to check. Otherwise, looks good.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Has your 6v transmission (180mm flywheel) been clearanced for a 12v (200mm) flywheel? Just a little grinding and a little fitment.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
aaronmvw
Samba Member


Joined: December 27, 2020
Posts: 1
Location: Charleston, SC
aaronmvw is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Currently upgrading my throwout bearing and shaft to work with a type 4 engine and pressure plate. Getting the press in guide collar to do the upgrade. Any advice for pressing in the seal and guide collar and making sure it stays in place?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
atenza
Samba Member


Joined: February 17, 2021
Posts: 4

atenza is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

I have read this entire post and I can't find any information about the early style bearing having flat sides. I am looking for a part number for this flat side bearing which is the one in the first posts picture. I am posting side by side pictures of the two and hoping someone has some info on this.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

atenza wrote:
I have read this entire post and I can't find any information about the early style bearing having flat sides. I am looking for a part number for this flat side bearing which is the one in the first posts picture.

I'm not sure a VW part# (111-141-165A) will help you. Often the same part# refers to physically different parts from different manufacturers that are acceptable alternatives. Sometimes the letter suffix will be different indicating different versions or sources, but as long as the updated/alternate part can be used in place of the original you may not get the exact part you are replacing. For example, I'd guess the original TO bearing part# was 111-141-165. An updated TO bearing was created and given the part# 111-141-165A and it superseded the old part. I tried a search of "111-141-165" and they ended up taking me to TO bearings with the actual part# with the "A" suffix, suggesting the A-version is a replacement for the earlier non-A version. The upgraded part is often a good thing because they may have a longer lifespan or fix earlier issues.

If you really must have the original version, search for New Old Stock (NOS) parts, but expect to pay a premium price.


Are you having an issue with one of these pictured TO bearings?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
atenza
Samba Member


Joined: February 17, 2021
Posts: 4

atenza is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Yes, I've seen 111-141-165A and also B but the pictures of them look the exact same. I am trying to purchase a new TO bearing and I need the kind that has flat sides. Literally the only thing I can find is of the 111-141-165 and that is what is pictured next to the flat sided bearing just to show the difference. So the 111-141-165 is not going to help me. I'm having trouble finding any info about this bearing with flat sides. Kind of surprised I can't find it on the internet. Only thing I come across showing it is this threads perfect picture of the flat sided bearing. Thanks for your quick response!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hazetguy
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
hazetguy is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

atenza wrote:
I have read this entire post and I can't find any information about the early style bearing having flat sides. I am looking for a part number for this flat side bearing which is the one in the first posts picture. I am posting side by side pictures of the two and hoping someone has some info on this.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



as mentioned, the part number for both of the ones pictured is 111-141-165A.
Sachs changed the design from the "flat side" style to the "fully round" style about 20 years ago. the VW part number didn't change.

did you search/look in the classifieds for a throw out bearing?
examples: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2305542
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2341867

one good thing is that the 'flat side' style is "rebuildable", in that you can disassemble it, and if there isn't much wear to the parts that ride in the clutch fork, and if the races and ball bearings are good, it can be repacked and put back into service. the 'round style' are throw-aways.

111 141 165A
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

pic credit w1k1


111 141 165B
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

pic credit HerrFink


Last edited by hazetguy on Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
atenza
Samba Member


Joined: February 17, 2021
Posts: 4

atenza is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Thanks very much for the explanation. I understand what you're saying that it is just an updated part. So I should be able to use either of these TO bearings for this application?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

atenza wrote:
Thanks very much for the explanation. I understand what you're saying that it is just an updated part. So I should be able to use either of these TO bearings for this application?

By "either" do you mean the different early style 165A parts regardless if it is flat or rounded... then "Yes", you should be able to use any 165A part.


But the 165B TO bearing is meant for the later '71-later transmissions. It uses a different release arm; different input shaft arrangement (needs the sleeve) and uses no centering ring on the PP. The 165B TO bearing should NOT be used with your setup. This is one of the key points of this 17page thread Wink


I was going to point out that your PP pic shows it is a "Stage2" part. This typically means more spring pressure to hold the clutch disc. While I'm sure it is probably okay to run a stock TO bearing for function, you may want to search for a TO bearing from the same maker meant for that PP. Often these come as a set (PP, disc, TO bearing). I say this because with other cars HD clutch parts often expect HD versions of their related parts ("... weakest link"). The TO bearing has to apply the needed force to the springs to release the PP. A HD Stage2 PP requires more pressure than stock. A stock TO bearing MAY see a reduced life when mated to a HD PP. Note that they do make HD release arms because the welds on the arms can fail under more strain.

I don't have empirical evidence of stock TO bearings failing when mated to Stage2/3 PPs, and many will have matched stock parts with HD parts w/o issue. My point is to just keep these things in mind.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
atenza
Samba Member


Joined: February 17, 2021
Posts: 4

atenza is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Yes I did mean the 165A bearing either flat or rounded, they both can work is what I'm understanding? Ashman thank you so much for all the info, it is exactly what I was trying to understand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bnam
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2931
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
bnam is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

My 71vert (Jan 26th build date) came with the later TO bearing but not the sleeve.

Original engine/gearbox (we've owned the car since 74). There are no holes for the screw to mount the sleeves.

Wondering if the sleeve can be retrofitted.
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

bnam wrote:
My 71vert (Jan 26th build date) came with the later TO bearing but not the sleeve.

Original engine/gearbox (we've owned the car since 74). There are no holes for the screw to mount the sleeves.

Wondering if the sleeve can be retrofitted.

The easiest option would probably be to install the conversion sleeve which replaces the input shaft seal.
https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Throw-Out-Bearing-Ad...sleeve.htm

Someone posted pics earlier in this thread showing their project to install the sleeve.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=292


Otherwise, you will need to drill and tap the transmission case for studs so the stock sleeve can be installed using three nuts. There are pics earlier in this thread showing that in some earlier transmissions (from '70 onward?) VW cast the case with flats for the studs but did not drill & tap them.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It looks like VW was preparing for the use of the input shaft sleeve in the later model years.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
clagrow
Samba Member


Joined: March 22, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Over there next to that thing
clagrow is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

I have a'65 T1 with the original tranny in it and an engine out of a '71 IRS. I cannot get the clutch to disengage. I have installed a new TO bearing, Stage 1 pressure plate and flywheel. I have included pictures of the TO bearing and the pressure plate. I do not have a Bowden tube on it and have adjusted the cable with a bit of slack and tight and neither work. Any ideas?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

clagrow wrote:
I do not have a Bowden tube on it and have adjusted the cable with a bit of slack and tight and neither work.

The bowden tube forces the clutch cable to take a longer path to pull on the release arm.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With the clutch cable coming straight out of the body and running to the release arm on the transmission it will be too long. Even with the wing nut tightened all the way down it may not allow the TO bearing to action the PP even with the pedal fully depressed.

Get the correct bowden tube and correct length clutch cable for your car+transmission.

Your '65 transmission should have been designed for a 180mm clutch disc & 180mm (aka 6v) flywheel. The '71 engine would have come with a 200mm (aka 12v) flywheel. The flywheel to crank mating surfaces are different between those two years so a swap may not be possible. I can't recall which direction works and which doesn't.
That transmission looks amazingly clean for a '65 and I don't see the normal signs it was clearanced (ground down) to allow the 200mm flywheel to fit into the bellhousing. You will also need to change the 6v (180mm) starter to a later one that will mate with the later 200mm flywheel. The starter teeth are different. I'm assuming you have addressed all of these issues?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Pruneman99
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
Pruneman99 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thetravman wrote:
I just put my engine from my old wrecked car into my new (to me) 66 beetle. Before I read this post I had just used the sleeve type clutch from my old 69 on the '66's tranny that has the sleeveless bearing. I drove it around the block and I heard the problem. Haven't had time to remove the engine again yet but don't worry, I haven't driven the car again yet. Should I change the whole flywheel from the '66 engine (It's got a 12V/200mm flywheel on it with the ring on the clutch)? My concern is will I have to reset the crankshaft endplay to match the flywheel? Also it seems to me that the clutches might "know" their flywheels. Let me know what you think.


Clutches are stupid. They don't know anything.

It sounds Ike you have a 1200 based engine and a 1600 based engine, but I'm a little confused about what you got.

Is the car 12v? Are you putting a 1600 based engine in?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
clagrow
Samba Member


Joined: March 22, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Over there next to that thing
clagrow is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

I have a 1965 Swing axle tranny and a 1971 1600cc engine. I have swapped out the flywheel and the pressure plate to 200mm. (I swapped the flywheel for a new one because it looked as if someone had used a wire wheel or something to clean it up and it had swirl marks in it.

The bell housing has been clearanced
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(professionally) and it has had the starter swapped for a 12v. It was already setup for 12v when i got it. It just did not come with the original engine. The engine with the new Stage 1 PP and flywheel fit into the bell housing just fine. My issue is; with the engine removed I can push the clutch cable arm forward with no issue and the TO bearing moved back like it should. Once I mate th engine up with the tranny, The arm only moves about an inch or so and stops and the clutch does not disengage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Busstom
Samba Member


Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 3789
Location: San Jose, CA
Busstom is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

I noticed parts of your discussion are in a couple different threads, so I may have missed something. But what is the date code on that tranny you're picturing? I ask because it doesn't look clearanced to me, it looks 12 volt. If it began life as a '67 or '68 transaxle, it would be a 12v swingaxle, explaining why it looks so cleanly clearanced.

The date code is those 3 little sets of (circled) numbers cast into the bottom-inside of the housing, below the input shaft.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ashman40
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15975
Location: North Florida, USA
ashman40 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

clagrow wrote:
My issue is; with the engine removed I can push the clutch cable arm forward with no issue and the TO bearing moved back like it should. Once I mate th engine up with the tranny, The arm only moves about an inch or so and stops and the clutch does not disengage.

This is done with the bowden tube installed, right? If you are doing a function check wo the bowden tube I would suggest it is a waste of time until you install the bowden tube.

The 1inch of movement you describe above is at the release arm on the transmission? Is this movement the TO bearing taking up the free play before it touches the PP ring? Or is this 1inch movement AFTER the TO bearing makes contact with the PP ring and it is the TO bearing compressing the PP springs? You should not expect to compress the PP by hand using the release arm on the transmission.
You should adjust the clutch so there is a small amount of free play between the TO bearing and the PP ring. Then have a buddy sit in the driver's seat and press on the clutch pedal while you watch the release arm move. Is it still only moving 1inch? I can't recall what is a reasonable amount of release arm movement for the amount of pedal travel. Because of the length difference between the release arm and the clutch pedal you should expect much less movement at the release arm.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
clagrow
Samba Member


Joined: March 22, 2022
Posts: 11
Location: Over there next to that thing
clagrow is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing Reply with quote

Ashman40, Thanks for the info! I will have time this weekend to mess with it. I will install the bowden tube and then see where I stand. the chassis was shortened so a stock length clutch cable won't work, I had to modify it cut the cable then used two u-bolt cable clamps to attach the two cable sections together to get the proper length.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
Jump to:
Page 17 of 19

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.