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Split Buyers Guide - What to look for
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Envious
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Split Buyers Guide - What to look for Reply with quote

I'm going to look at a 51 deluxe on Friday. I'm told that it's a crotch cooler, semaphore car that has been garaged for 20 years.

Since I don't know split window cars very well, I'm trying to educate myself before I go to look at it. I would like to have a check list of split window items to look for. Things that may be expensive to obtain or hard to find later if the car is missing them or they're there but incorrect.

For example, are there characteristics of the fenders, aprons, doors, etc to prove/disprove they're correct for the car.

I'm told that the semaphores and front seats are missing. The car has an early 60's transmission and 40hp motor in it but comes with the original transmission and a 25hp motor.

Thanks for any input. I'll post pics later whether it's good, bad, or ugly.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the best thing to do is take lots of pics and post them here if you are unsure of anything... we're here to help. Laughing

I have about 17 pages of a "Split Buyers Guide" I have written, but without pics of all these details it really isn't of much use. One day I'll finish the damn thing....
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eh0s
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my advice is try to buy it as complete as possible! (Especially fenders, hood, interior, and all those little 'split' only parts!). Those pieces are difficult/expensive to find and the first to be 'stripped' from splits.
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Envious
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnshenry wrote:
Probably the best thing to do is take lots of pics and post them here if you are unsure of anything... we're here to help. Laughing

I have about 17 pages of a "Split Buyers Guide" I have written, but without pics of all these details it really isn't of much use. One day I'll finish the damn thing....

Fair enough. I'm seeing the car through a mutual friend before the owner has advertised it for sale. I was hoping to go see the car with enough amunition and a pocket full of cash to negotiate a price and close the deal. If he's asking an outrageous amount, I want to be able to make a fair offer based on the fact that the car needs a, b, and c and those things are going to cost me $X to purchase.

I've already printed off as many classified listings as possible since last November when I started shopping so based on condition, I should be able to narrow down the starting price range in comparison for the complete car.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good point from eh0s.

The day I brought my '50 sunroof home, I could have parted it out and tripled my money. The converse is true: it is far more expensive to piece together a split that has missing/wrong parts than it is to just buy a complete and correct one. Usually. (....with the caveat that I have observed split prices go up significantly over the last 1-2 years).

Not to say that you will find a complete, no missing or incorrect parts split for 4 grand, but don't underestimate that cost of "putting back" the right split parts......

Keep us posted.......
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Envious wrote:
"I was hoping to go see the car with enough amunition and a pocket full of cash to negotiate a price and close the deal.


Sounds like you have decided to buy the car no matter what, you just want to be prepared to dish out the right amount of money. If I were you I'd be careful and leave the wad of dough at home. Do what's being adviced by bringing a camera. Take pictures and really examine the car closely. Then go home and post the pictures. Don't go with cash because once you see those two windows you'll just want it and maybe that won't change. However, at least you can really make a smart decision and not feel bad about it knowing what the experts tell you here.
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Envious
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VDubMattStuart wrote:
Sounds like you have decided to buy the car no matter what, you just want to be prepared to dish out the right amount of money.


Not really the case. I'm trying to stall the owner from advertising the car before I get first crack at it. If I "take some time to think about it", there will be an ad on thesamba.com before I get back home. He's in liquidation mode and would respond better to a quick transaction that puts money in his pocket immediately. This is the car he was "never going to sell" so something's up.

I'm driving there with my car trailer hoping to bring the car home with me when I leave. I don't buy junk and I'm not willing to spend my money on just any car. I have no problem coming home with all my money and an empty trailer if the car is too rough, too incomplete, or priced higher than current market value.

I want to be as well educated as possible when the garage door rolls open so I can negociate smartly. Unfortunately, this isn't going to be one of those deals I can sit on for too long.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea to have the expectation that you will come home with your money and empty trailer.

You may consider giving the seller a decent deposit ($100 or so) and asking him to just hold the car for you for like 2-5 days (whatever you can negotiate), while you post pics and mull it over, ESPECIALLY If you are not quite sure how correct it is.

Type up a simple "P&S" document that lays out the terms. It should say you get your deposit back if before the time expires you tell him you don't want it. You might even tell him that you only get half back, and he keeps half to incent him to take the deal.

I have done a lot of dealings in situations where I am not sure I want the car just yet, but don't want it to slip away. The approach is simple: Put yourself in the sellers shoes. He may not want to "hold" the car for you and pass up other offers (they may be more than you are offerring) unless he is real confident you will buy it, or he gets $50 or so even if you pass. Word the P&S carefully, make 2 copies, you each sign both, and keep one copy. Lead him on that this is a fairly standard practice if he get antsy about it (it is in boat sales, that is where I found a nice P&S doc onthe web that I used once).

It all depends on the seller though. If selling it is a nuisance to him, make it easy for him. If he is emotionally attached to it, and maybe doesn't want to sell, assure him you will restore it and give it the attention it deserves. If he seems to think he doesn't know the value and maybe you are ripping him off, try to pin him with that "P&S" approach,get hiim to sign it and assure him that it is in HIS interest to assure the sale with you.. or lose nothing.

Its all about reading the emotional state of the seller, and cutting your risks. Of course there is nothing to say he can sell it out from under you anyway... there is no shortage of scum in this world....
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I respect your writing/website alot Johnshenry, but the only thing I would hold for $50 is something worth $100.

It seems like the seller is anxious to sell and get moving, I think he'll need a nice sized deposit (1-2G's?).

FYI, I just paid a $500 deposit on a $2000 'hot' part (something that a lot of people are intersted in).
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Envious
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can work out an acceptable amount with the seller but johnshenry's point his very valid and an excellent idea. Thanks for the suggestion and wish me luck.

I've missed out on two cars since I started my search a coule of months ago because I looked first and researched later. I took a little too long and the cars were sold. I'm hoping for better luck this time round.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

all i would say is make sure you know what your looking at,i know how hard this is as ive just recently bought a 51 beetle,i just made sure it was as complete as poss, as the price of any missing or incorrect patrs is very expensive,im sure you will know when you see the car,i knew streight away when i saw mine,i wasnt going home without it,i hope its the car your looking for,good luck,steve. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolfsburgvw wrote:
i knew streight away when i saw mine,i wasnt going home without it,i hope its the car your looking for,good luck,steve. Smile


Same! There was no way I was leaving when I saw those two little windows Smile What can I say, some things you buy rationally (eg stocks/options), and some you let your passion make your decision for you.

They still make money, they don't make splits anymore...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hind sight is 20-20 and I definitely know 95% more now after owning a split than I did before I bought one and was searching. I guess you learn as you go. It unfortunate because I just spent over a year restoring a split I paid 10K for. I would much rather have spent 15 or 20K and have been enjoying the car for the past year instead of removing cancer and making it look nice and usable. I have WAY OVER 20K invested in it. I would have been much better off waiting for the "right one."
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blood makes the bond grow fonder.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eh0s wrote:
Blood makes the bond grow fonder.


Unrelated to VWs: I love little situational sayings like this. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm only speaking for myself. But I know for sure if I would've bought a 'finished' split for 20-25K, I would've grown bored after 6 months and flipped it. It's happened before with all manner of projects, cool toys etc.

But my lil split has grown on me. I was tempted to sell it many times (I only have a triple garage and a desire for 10 different cars). But the more I work on lil Split, the more I have affinity for it. It might still come up for sale (who knows?) but I have a feeling it's a keeper.

I might go as far as doing the really inane. Naming it. (That's a sickening thought).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Envious wrote:
I'm trying to stall the owner from advertising the car. If I "take some time to think about it", there will be an ad on thesamba.com before I get back home.


If the seller knows about this site, the car won't be cheap.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the seller knows about this site, the car won't be cheap.


This is true. Finding a seller that is internet dis-connected is a real bonus. Not that you will steal the car from him/her, but you may be in a much better negotiating position.

The guy I bought my '51 Std fromknew nothing of the internet, or what his car might be worth. Moreover, he didn't even know what he wanted for it. He just kept saying "make me an offer" Smile

I pressed him for some bounds, but he had no numbers in mind, so I made him an offer that I thought was reasonable-low, and he said "fine". I did get e heck of a deal but me and two friends worked at his collapsing barn for what amounted to 4-5 man-days total moving and clearing stuff that he himself couldn't possibly have done.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnshenry, those pics are amazing. I've seen them in an earlier post and dragged my wife, father, and brother in law to see them at the time. I'm jealous.

The seller is a confirmed computer illiterate which is a good thing. That was one of my first questions when I was told about the car. Hopefully he didn't watch the Barret Jackson auction either which would almost be worse after seeing what the VW's sold for.

The seller is also a confirmed car collector so I'm afraid he won't tell me a price but he'll know exactly what he wants for it. I'll have to keep guessing until I get it right. I had the same problem when I bought my squareback. The seller said make me an offer, I did, he said he wanted more. We finally agreed on an amount that we were both happy with but it would have made the process a lot earier if he just told me how much he wanted to get out of the car. He obviuosly knew all along.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Computer illiterate is good. Car collector may be bad.

Next question is how well does he know VWs, more importantly splits? My guess would be not very well (I'm talking about all the nit-picky details). He probably "has heard" of what VWs of this vintage sell for....

Here, some education on your part can help you out. He may assert that a split of that vintage is worth N-thousand, to which you can agree, BUT, then start pointing out all the stuff wrong, and the high costs of getting it back. T cleaners at $600 and up, ribber bumpers (good ones) like T rex bones, 25 hp engine tin, whatever....

Personally those people who say "Make me an offer" and yet know what they will take piss me off. All they are doing is try to see if you will offer more than there min. I prod them for a basis, if they don't come up with one, I start REAL low.

Now I didn't want to offend the guy I bought the split above from. I sensed he wanted to sell the car to me, I KNEW he wasn't really trying to sell (he was more concerned with starting to empty that barn out some) and I really think he had no idea what it was worth. So I made him a low, but not offensive offer.

Envious: Check out the "What to look for when buying" article at my site thebugshop.org. It is basic, maybe somewhat outdated, and not split specific, but it may help you if you haven't read it already.

Also, drop me a p-mail with your e-mail address and I'll send you text from my as-yet-unpublished split buyers guide if you want. I really believe the more info you have going into this the better off you will be. You really shouldn't get to emotional about buying a car (yeah, right) but then again, *I* know the pool of decent splits for sale is drying up quickly.....
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