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LOWLIGHT FLOOR MATS... THE SOLUTION!
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boinkffd
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Great news. Thank you for the update.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Sounds good to me. Great write up. Mr Moxon should sticky that 👍
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Updated Backers List

Please review and edit if necessary:

BOLD indicates people that confirmed their request

lontock - LL1-BK
JD1 - LL4-XX x2 & LL1-XX x2
kgj LL4-GN & LL1-GN
Tall Bloke - LL8-GY
PeteSC - LL8-GN & LL8-GY
Srecko - LL8-XX x2 RHD
vegasSTEVE - LL1-BK
Rensp - LL1-XX
Loren - LL8-GN & LL8-BN
calexican - LL1-GY
jlarrey - LL8-GN
ghazzok LL8-BN & LL8-GN
Aussie59Cab - LL8-GY
CerveloMikey - LL8-GN & LL8-GY
Kiwighia68 - LL8-BN RHD
technik LL8-GY
ghiafreek - LL1-BN
laneven28 - LL1-XX x2
Burman - LL8-BN & LL8-GY
kgstef - LL8-BN
Chris Andersen - LL8-BN
boinkffd - LL1-GY
villemi - LL8-GN
MJMarkham - LL8-GY
HouseofGhia - LL8-GY x2, LL8-BN & LL8-GN
grailoc - LL8-BN
cocojoe -
Braukuche - LL8-GY
oldbusboy - LL8-XX x2
Inchpinchero61 - LL8-GY
bnam -
009subshine - LL8-BN
sputnick60 LL4-BK RHD
clarkare LL4-BK RHD
John Moxon - LL8-GY
Sancho58 - LL8-XX x2
djway3474 - LL8-GY
1960bus - LL8-GY
Rob4 - LL8-BK
ntchbak - LL8-GY
andy914-6 - LL8-GY
bob-on - LL8-GY RHD
cruiser - LL8-BN
reeler - LL8-BN & LL7-BN
ghia57 - LL8 GY x6, LL8-GN & LL8-XX RHS x2
RockStock - LL8-BN
crazy tarzan - LL8-GN
redkg - LL8-GY RHD
mjrpoulton - LL4-BK
Og50on16's - LL8-BN
52 deelux LL8-GY
Don LL8-GN
swanlakers LL8-GY
theghiagirl LL8-GY & LL8-GN X2

New Request Format:

LLx-cc BKFM RHD, where:

LL8 - Complete 8 piece set: Front Panel, Tunnel, Front Floor Right, Front Floor Left, Rear Floor (x2), Sill Right, Sill Left
LL7 - Floor 7 piece set: Tunnel, Front Floor Right, Front Floor Left, Rear Floor (x2), Sill Right, Sill Left
LL4 - Floor 4 piece set: Front Floor Right, Front Floor Left, Rear Floor (x2)
LL2 - Sill 2 piece set: Right Sill mat and Left Sill mat
LL1 - Front Panel 1 piece set: Front Panel

x = 8(Complete), 7(All Floor), 4(Floor), 2(Sills) or 1(Front/Bulkhead)

cc = BN(Brown/Beige), GY(Gray), GN(Green) or BK(Black)

Add BKFM if you want the 4 Floor Mats Black

Add RHD for Right Hand Drive cars

Car Color / Mat Color Table


Grey Mats GY
Black Coupe
Cognac Coupe
Cardinal Red Coupe
Dolphin Blue Coupe
Black Cab
Bernina Cab
Toucan Black Coupe (tbc)
Trout Blue Coupe (tbc)

Beige Mats (Brown BN in the list)
Brilliant Red Coupe
Pearl-White Cab
Colorado/Cardinal Red Cab
Graphite-Silver Cab
Diamond-Grey Cab
Gazelle Beige Coupe (tbc)
Pelican Red Coupe (tbc)
Antelope Brown Coupe (tbc)

Green Mats GN

Bamboo Coupe
Aero-Silver Coupe
Amazon Cab
Lizard Green Coupe (tbc)


RHD demand is still low to justify another set of molds, tell your RHD friends!
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

While I think that it is fantastic that this mat mold and process has been created.

It may very well be time for a few sets to be produced and shipped for feedback before everyone gets too excited?

Honestly, There isn't a price or a delivery date yet....... unless I missed that post.

I'm not a buyer........ just a cocerned observer.

We've had reproduction mat issues in the past,........


Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

I would like to add LL-2 GY.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
While I think that it is fantastic that this mat mold and process has been created.

It may very well be time for a few sets to be produced and shipped for feedback before everyone gets too excited?

Honestly, There isn't a price or a delivery date yet....... unless I missed that post.

I'm not a buyer........ just a cocerned observer.

We've had reproduction mat issues in the past,........


Dave


I think the list he is assembling is to confirm the cost overall prior going to production.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

grailoc wrote:
djkeev wrote:
While I think that it is fantastic that this mat mold and process has been created.

It may very well be time for a few sets to be produced and shipped for feedback before everyone gets too excited?

Honestly, There isn't a price or a delivery date yet....... unless I missed that post.

I'm not a buyer........ just a cocerned observer.

We've had reproduction mat issues in the past,........


Dave


I think the list he is assembling is to confirm the cost overall prior going to production.



Here's the rub, you have a list, everybody "wants"...... then the price is computed....... say it is $2500 .......... half to two thirds of this list probably vanishes at that kind of a price point. What good is the list now?
I know I'd drop out at that kind of a pice point, I'd still want a set but it won't be happening.

Better to bite the financial bullet and make a few. That will demonstrate price point, abilty to deliver and level of quality.
Now you can gather an order list of those who really will buy.

Or if you don't have the funds, someone will gamble on you. I did that for a small run Vanagon part. The guy had a great idea, had the ability, hadn't any cash. I took a gamble on him. He made a dozen or so, sent me mine. Sent out the batch he made as people lined up to purchase.

Sadly, he fell terribly ill and then was flooded by a Hurricane down in Daytona this past Winter.
I told him he needs the money more than I and to invest the funds in putting his life back upright. It honestly wasn't a huge amount.
All is well, we're still friends.

You don't lend money unless you can afford to give that same amount away.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

The intention is Dave, when the first molded mats sets have been made Lars has said a "KickStart" page will be set-up for those interested to pledge their money...that protects their investment.

Everyone who has followed this project over the years will be well aware of the pit-falls, both logistic and funding of the expensive mold-making process. Lars has already invested money for the mold making. Pricing the product is going to be tricky...too much and you could stall...to little and heavy advertising will be needed to get the numbers needed. Let's cross that bridge when the prices are announced.

Most will be happy that this project seems to be on the verge of completion and that investor's monies will be protected.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

John,
I understand that.
As mentioned, it is exciting to have new mats as an option. I have nothing but praise for the effort.

My concern is that without a price, even a rough price point, EVERYONE is interested.

That all changes once a price is announced.

If the projected price is $500, sure...... I'd add my name.
If the projected price is $2500..... no, I'll not sign up.

If he is determining a selling price based upon anticipated quantity being sold, this list as it stands won't help.
Every name on this list has zero idea of the possible cost. Some don't care, they just want proper mats. Most on the list probably have finite funds.

You will get a more realistic potential buyer list with some sort of a rough price.... that's all I'm saying.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

These mats are for a very specific group of people that have early Karmann Ghias. This is a once in a life time opportunity to get a part that has been obsolete for 4 decades. For some it is the "last piece" to finish their car. Look at the post counts for the members getting on the list. None even close to 5 digits. These guys are coming out of the woodwork to get the unobtainable. Unfortunately, the sky is the limit when restoring one of these things. $3000 for correct upholstery (seats only) $1500 for a steering wheel or $500 for a turn signal switch. Not to mention tail light lenses, visors or mirrors. Paint costs more than the purchase price of the car. There would not be as much interest if the fit, finish and quality of the sample pieces was not equal to or better than the originals. Everyone understands where we are in this process and no one that is on the list has asked how much they are going to cost. Don't yuck someone else's yum!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

CerveloMikey wrote:
These mats are for a very specific group of people that have early Karmann Ghias... ... Don't yuck someone else's yum!


I see a few people on the list incl djkeev who don't own lowlights, I think it's also an aesthetic choice for some and if they want to help lower the overall cost by getting a set, surely that's not a bad thing.
What I'm reading is that if the price point is low enough you will potentially pick up more sales to non lowlight owners but as "Mikey" suggests a lowlight owner is more likely to step up and pay a higher price to complete their car as they have vested interest?

"Lajs 57" Can you please put me down for LL8-GY BKFM to suit 56 pelican red
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Hello all,

As promised, here is the price analysis based on the forum member's demand!

Before I start, I want to comment on the last posts from Dave (djkeev). What he is saying is right, until a price is set, the real demand can't be validated. With the REAL demand determined, it will be decided if the project goes or stalls.

That is where we are now!

First, here is the final count of interested members, as of March 20, 2018:

LL8 Complete sets: 55 LHD and 7 RHD. CONFIRMED: 51 LHD and 6 RHD
LL7 All Floor Mats set: 1 LHD CONFIRMED: 1 LHD
LL4 4 Floor Mats sets: 4 LHD and 2 RHD CONFIRMED: 2 LHD and 2 RHD
LL2 2 Sill Mats set: 1 LHD CONFIRMED: 1 LHD
LL1 Front Panel Mat: 11 LHD CONFIRMED: 4 LHD

At this time, there are not enough RHD Confirmed requests to include them in the project
LL7, LL4, LL2 & LL1 requests are minimal to impact the price setting (if the project goes, those will be fulfiled!)

For practical purposes, I will use 50 LL8 LHD as the Initial Demand Factor.

Second, let's look at the Costs:

PRODUCT: Double Layer/Double Color set of Low Light Karmann Ghia rubber mats. The color layer won't be a dye, but a fade resistant, flexible, and permanent layer.

FIX COSTS:

MOLDS required: 14
(Molds considered are 2-part molds, with guide posts and inserts for orifices. All are 30" wide for an efficient production flow )

(24x30x1)*4 For 2 Front Floor Mats
(19x30x1)*4 For 2 Rear Floor Mats
(42x30x1)*2 For Sill mats ( Molded simultaneously)
(56x30x2)*2 For Tunnel Mat
(78x30x6)*2 For Front Panel Mat
Total of 41,040 cubic inches of materials @ $0.3 per cubic inch = $12,312.00
Engineering/Consulting/CAD/Labor @ $500 per mat =$3,500
Total: $15,812.00

SEMI-INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION LINE

Preparing Station (x2)
Spraying Station (x2)
Dispensing Station (x1)
Curing Station (x1)
Cleaning Station (x1)
Compress Air/ Pressurized Water / Special spraying equipment /Oven /Industrial Precision Balance
Budget $10,000

RENT & SALARIES
Duration of Project = 90 days
Facilities @ 1500 per month x3 = 4,500
Labor 2 persons @15/hour x 90 days = 14,400
Total = 18,900

Total Fix Cost for 3 months = $44,712

COST PER LL8 set:

Volume = 887 cubic inches
@ $0.6 per cubic inch including mat materials, waste and production consumables = $532.20
A risk factor of 0.33 for total cost = $798.00


PRICE SCENARIOS:

100 Sets
44,712 / 100 = 447 + 798 = $1,245.00
(even break point = 79 orders)

50 Sets
44,712 / 50 = 894.24 + 798 = $1,692.24
(even break point = 42 orders)

30 Sets
44,712 / 50 = 1,490.4 + 798 = 2,288.4
(even break point = 26 orders)


From our Initial Demand Factor we are in the 50 Sets scenario. If there are 42 orders we have a green light to proceed.


CONSIDERATIONS

-You will have an awesome Low Light with color matching era correct mats!
-For an 8 pieces set of 2 color 2 textured sides mats, this is a great price
-I'm pricing it considering you as backers more than a customer
-A complete set increases the car value many times this cost
-This may be the only chance to have a complete set at this price.
-Future fabrication, if that happens, will be more expensive. It is unlikely to have a future production batch of this size.
-A lower price one-color/one-side mat set is not an option. Like many of you, I like "just like the original" replacements. Stock Rocks!
-I'm not including all the time an effort it took me to get where we are.
-By any means I'm not going to get rich doing this, I'm doing it because a love Karmann Ghias!

Waiting for your responses!

Please post your comments/questions directly or send me a PM

Luis


Last edited by lajs57 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

This is a lot to digest, but thank you for breaking it down and the hard work to make this run a go. I understand the complete sets will be made first and top priority , and the price senerios are defined.

Do you have an idea yet on price breakdown for the separate pieces?

LL7
LL2
LL1
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Luis, I'm pretty late to this party having been waiting to see what unfolded...

What I think you need to consider is outsourcing the manufacture of the mats once you have the moulds. This will help cut down the "semi industrial production line costs" and the "30% risk costs", as the risk will be passed onto the qualified individuals who produce them.
Having fabricated and moulded many items over the years from people to elephants, I can tell you with certainty that there are many qualified people who would be happy to fit in a small run of rubber mats into to their workshop. The idea of you tooling up just for a 90 day run doesn't make sense to me. If you do consider outsourcing I would start with a high end qualified props (film/art) manufacturing workshop as they are used to delivering technically challenging products in short runs on time and will have all the nessesary equipment. What's more if they can't they will be able to refer you to someone who can. I would also stay away from the high volume rubber manufacturer as you will be a small fry job to them of no importance or significance.

Really appreciate what you are doing and looking forward to the results...
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Well Lewis I'm in 100% just let me know when I need to send the money
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

CerveloMikey wrote:
These mats are for a very specific group of people that have early Karmann Ghias. This is a once in a life time opportunity to get a part that has been obsolete for 4 decades. For some it is the "last piece" to finish their car. Look at the post counts for the members getting on the list. None even close to 5 digits. These guys are coming out of the woodwork to get the unobtainable. Unfortunately, the sky is the limit when restoring one of these things. $3000 for correct upholstery (seats only) $1500 for a steering wheel or $500 for a turn signal switch. Not to mention tail light lenses, visors or mirrors. Paint costs more than the purchase price of the car. There would not be as much interest if the fit, finish and quality of the sample pieces was not equal to or better than the originals. Everyone understands where we are in this process and no one that is on the list has asked how much they are going to cost. Don't yuck someone else's yum!


I've no intention of "yucking your yum".
I also haven't any interest in purchasing no matter what the cost.
My concern is that this project moves forward with real numbers and real buyers avoiding the scams that have happened in years previous.

I believe Luis is moving forward driven by a passion for the hobby.
I understand that 100% ..... BTDT.

I wish him the best and hope his product quality is top notch as he obviously intends for it to be.

I'm thrilled that pricing has surfaced. Now those who "want" know what their desires will probably cost....... plus packaging and shipping.

Dave
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Good day to every one!

There are 5 backers from USA, Germany and Sweden confirming their support!

THANK YOU!

Regarding the suggestion to outsource the production, here are my comments:

- I appreciate the intention to help the project to go.
- There are Quality and Price market approaches, as I expressed before, I believe Quality is the way to go.
- If I outsource I can't warranty that EVERY piece is right. I'm sure there is a shop somewhere that may do a good job, but where they are, how much they charge, what quality they have, how long it will take to find them, when they can do the job, how close they would be from New Hampshire, etc., are questions I don't have an answer for.
- It may seem that planning for a 90 days production line does't make sense. I believe it is the best option for a limited production to be delivered on time. We are talking about a 50 set batch, not hundreds or thousands of orders.
- I said semi-industrial, as I'm not planning to make a permanent facility.
- Yes, the cost of this approach reflects on the price, but this way I can control the quality and the timely delivery of orders.
- The technical support I'm getting to make the molds is from a film/art expert with a lot of experience with short runs. They agree with my approach and also helped me not to sub-estimate the molds' cost, as the bulkhead mold is a challenging one.
- Regarding this mold, a forum member asked in a PM:
Quote:
About the bulkhead mat I have a question how the mold is going to be made. From your prototype glued upon an bulkhead wall and then making a mold out of that or? I saw you did a scan of that area. The bulkhead mat prototype looks really nice but seems to be patched at som places. Are those patches going to be fixed? What I really want to know is if the bulkhead mat is going to be as nice as the floor mats?

Here is the response:
Quote:
Regarding the bulkhead mat, you are right, the prototype will be perfectly placed and glued to make the mold. And yes, the details of the prototype will be reworked before making the initial mold. All the borders around the strips areas will be redone with a nice continuous border and the patches will be minimized with larger pieces. Then, a wax mold/piece set will me made to correct all remaining details. Then a correct production mold will be made.


Also I want to say that Dave's intention to avoid anyone to get scammed, as it happened before, is appreciated.

Well, this is it from now, waiting for your request's confirmation!

Have a nice weekend,

Luis


Last edited by lajs57 on Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

I am in 100% for one green set LL8-GN
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

Count me for a LL8-GN as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Lowlight floor mats....possible reproduction source Reply with quote

I am in for the LL8 BRN bulkhead, tunnel and side mats and black floor mats.
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