Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Is your van SAFE?
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
That's really good information HV - thanks!

The cutaway photo that shows just how far the driver's knees are from the front of the van is really good.


You are welcome!

Very Happy
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: NHTSA: VANAGON HAS, (1980-1990), THE BEST CHEST DECELERATION Reply with quote

NHTSA about VANAGON:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This characteristic reduces the possibilities for internal trauma.
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
Vanagon Driver (no airbag): Not Injured.

Minivan Driver (airbags): Left the scene in an ambulance and spent 4 days in the hospital.

You tell me which vehicle you'd rather be driving...


Sir, the other car, is a DODGE CARAVAN 1990-1992?

Because I have some IIHS data, and trying to see how they are connected to this accident.

Generally speaking, VANAGON has three unique pros for such an offset crash:

1)The wheel supports the frame, and is not tending to intrude in the cabin against left foot, as happens in many "conventional" cars.

2)There is no danger of a monoblock mass, with zero absorbing capabilities, (engine), to cutin the cabin. A very present danger for the most cars.

3)No fuel lines ready to spill over petrol, causing fire.

And the, unavoitable "if":

If the camper was a Syncro, having the front subframe reinforced by a well
adapted spare wheel carrier,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


"sitting" higher,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


having a "cruncher", (which is double the deformation element),

#4 in picture
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


the results could were even better.
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
randywebb
Samba Member


Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
randywebb is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
I don't doubt your measurements of other vehicle bumpers, but everywhere I parked near other vehicles and happened to look, my Syncro bumper was clearly much higher than others.


Also, bumper ht. is irrelevant to the tendency to rollover. The metal and glass above the center of gravity and the roll center is much larger in a Van than in a passenger car.
_________________
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
GWTWTLW
Samba Member


Joined: April 22, 2008
Posts: 2158
Location: Portland, OR
GWTWTLW is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

randywebb wrote:
Also, bumper ht. is irrelevant to the tendency to rollover. The metal and glass above the center of gravity and the roll center is much larger in a Van than in a passenger car.

When I rolled my AdventureWagen, the only glass that broke was the windshield, drivers window and rear hatch. All the glass in the rear passenger compartment was completely intact. All the doors except for the rear hatch opened with ease.
_________________
89 Syncro Westy - GW 2.5, now with a double knob job
@gwtwtlw
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Howesight
Samba Member


Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 2489
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Howesight is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a pretty interesting discussion. When I have seen accident reconstruction reports in the past, one of the most critical elements the engineer needs is the mass of each vehicle.

Mass is key in establishing the deceleration of the respective vehicles. After that, occupant deceleration is largely a function of the crumple zone effectiveness. Seat belts and airbags enable the passenger to benefit from that deceleration forces absorbed by the crumple zone.

That crumple zone deceleration is very small in comparison to the primary deceleration created by large differences in vehicle mass. So in the Van versus Audi pics, there are a 3,200 lb Audi and a 5,000 lb Vanagon/T3. The Audi would have had to decelerate to a stop (negative acceleration) and would have reversed direction, whereas the Vanagon would only decelerate at a lesser rate.

I once had the displeasure of witnessing a left- turning 1980's toyota car get t-boned by a loaded 18-wheeler at an intersection. The truck clearly saw the car, hit the horn and the brakes, and by the time it hit the Toyota, was, I reckon, going only about 25 MPH, maybe less. The Toyota and the occupants were, due to the mass of the truck, accelerated to 25 MPH instantly as there is no side "crumple zone". The front passenger was killed instantly. It was bloodless.

I arrived to assist and the driver and driver's side rear seat passenger were moaning. The woman in the front passenger seat was dead, eyes wide open, with tiny shards of windshield/side window glass embedded in her open eyes.

Mass is key. It's a killer.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
IdahoDoug
Samba Member


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 9920
Location: N. Idaho
IdahoDoug is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great info. The Vanagon is an example of solid structural engineering. The comments on mass are also worth noting. Go big.

On the PDXWesty accident - was the driver of the Chrysler minivan wearing a seatbelt? Looks like I can see the driver's head hit the windshield pretty hard. If not, then that driver's injuries were due to lack of restraint and they might have walked away. Wear your seatbelt, boys and girls. I have a habit of cinching mine tighter absently when I'm in dangerous conditions - high speed curves, rush hour fast urban areas with people taking chances, etc.

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2016 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential. 1988 Mitsubishi Van w/ dual spinny seats, mid engine and solid axle.1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1992 Lexus LS400, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa project in pieces, 2002 BMW 325iX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
1621
Samba Member


Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2174

1621 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not my van, nor do I know anything about this accident. I saw this a few years ago at the parts yard in SE Portland. It looks like a horrific accident, though surprisingly, it appeared the driver's compartment was relatively intact. By this I mean the lower door was crushed, but the upper part of the compartment seemed to hold up.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
'85 Westy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1621 wrote:
Not my van, nor do I know anything about this accident. I saw this a few years ago at the parts yard in SE Portland. It looks like a horrific accident, though surprisingly, it appeared the driver's compartment was relatively intact. By this I mean the lower door was crushed, but the upper part of the compartment seemed to hold up.




It is very dangerous to make conclusions if we do not have the facts of an accident, such as the velocity of the two vehicles, the crash angle, the second car to see the grade of its destruction, etc..

Because there are, equally, images of catastrophe of any vehicle of any category but we cannot say that all cars are equally safe or unsafe.
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
1621
Samba Member


Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2174

1621 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellenic vanagon wrote:
1621 wrote:
Not my van, nor do I know anything about this accident. I saw this a few years ago at the parts yard in SE Portland. It looks like a horrific accident, though surprisingly, it appeared the driver's compartment was relatively intact. By this I mean the lower door was crushed, but the upper part of the compartment seemed to hold up.




It is very dangerous to make conclusions if we do not have the facts of an accident, such as the velocity of the two vehicles, the crash angle, the second car to see the grade of its destruction, etc..

Because there are, equally, images of catastrophe of any vehicle of any category but we cannot say that all cars are equally safe or unsafe.



I have made no claims about the outcome of this accident for either vehicle's occupants, rather I share the photos to offer another example of a Vanagon in an accident. Up until now the focus has been primarily on frontal impacts, while this offers a glimpse of an impact from a different angle.

Draw your own conclusions carefully, but please note that I have made none in regards to the safety of the Vanagon.
_________________
'85 Westy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: TOYOTA LANDCRUISER DESTRUCTION Reply with quote

If you see this photo, for the previously mentioned TOYOTA LAND CRUISER, knowing nothing about the above mentioned facts, can you conclude anything about the grade of its passive safety?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
The Syncro Heresy


Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: MERCEDES imitates VW! Reply with quote

After fifteen years of T3 introduction, Mercedes used a very similar passive design for its baby, having the same architecture,with a rear engine.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The results are, almost, equally perfect!
(Talking always within the limits of the technology).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_%28automobile%29
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very interesting point of SMART's design is the capability to redirect the crash forces from horizontal to vertical, since there is a limited space for horizontal absorption!

Please have a look to the main chassis members, (red), how they are constructed with a slope in order to achieve this redirection:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the question is, has the fifteen years older T3's design the same, very valuable for such an architecture, design?

Examine this photo, from VW's official tests, specially chosen the one without door skin, in order this effect to be more obvious:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, easily you can see, that VW with its T3, uses this clever technique to redirect forces, absorbing tremendous amounts of energy, as another contributional factor for T3's passive safety.
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same idea is repeated here, where, as a spider web, the forces are redirected upwards-downwards!

Please look how the # 2 green member has a, slight, slope to the vertical red one:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, before saying anything about how we can substitute airbags, let me ask you:

can you expect what happens when an OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS attacks a VANAGON?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Are you familiar with such an accident?
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
IdahoDoug
Samba Member


Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 9920
Location: N. Idaho
IdahoDoug is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the Cutlass you are referring to was an older model? The older model with a full body on frame design. No contest!

Wow, that LandCruiser picture made the rounds on our forum as well. I heard it was a high speed (110+) situation and the other half is out in the sand nearby. Saudi Arabia?

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2016 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential. 1988 Mitsubishi Van w/ dual spinny seats, mid engine and solid axle.1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1992 Lexus LS400, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa project in pieces, 2002 BMW 325iX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
I believe the Cutlass you are referring to was an older model? The older model with a full body on frame design. No contest!

Wow, that LandCruiser picture made the rounds on our forum as well. I heard it was a high speed (110+) situation and the other half is out in the sand nearby. Saudi Arabia?

DougM



1)No contest? Does that that mean that you thing that there is no chance for VANAGON? And I am referred specifically to the model in the picture.

2)I don't know anything about this LAND CRUISER, and exactly this is my point:it is not possible to say anything about its crashworthiness knowing nothing about the real circumstances!

3)But take another CRUISER case, both cars appeared:

An old LADA, (FIAT 124), became like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and the CRUISER:
















Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



But I post it here only as a joke, because the above case doesn't mean anything negative for the CRUISER, (except an extra...linearity in the roof), and much more, doesn't mean anything positive for the LADA! Very Happy
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hellenic vanagon
Samba Member


Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 278
Location: ATHENS GREECE
hellenic vanagon is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: FRONTAL COLLISION: BMW 520 (?) VS 2WD T3. Reply with quote

From the German press.

Bmw's driver, (she), went to the opposite lane and had frontal collision to a TRANSPORTER. (In fact it is a CARAVELLE, the European edition of VANAGON).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Results:

she injured heavily and went to the hospital.

Driver and passenger of T3, injured lightly, and there is no reference that they carried to hospital.

There is no mention about the wearing of their seatbelts or for the velocity of the involved vehicles.
_________________
The Syncro Heresy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ChilliConCarnage
Samba Member


Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 156
Location: PNW
ChilliConCarnage is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion. Don't know if this was posted yet, but according to the April 1991 Insurance Institute for Highway Safety status report, the vanagon was ranked 2nd out of 134 vehicles studied. In fact, in its class, it had had an amazing 1/3rd of the average fatality rate.

http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr2604.pdf

Those Germans knew what they were doing. I feel quite safe in our Westy. I daily-drove a '62 type II for a decade, so I'm use to the forward seating position.
_________________
Now:
86 Westy
00 GTI VR6
03 Passat V6 4Motion

Sold:
62 T2 Double Door panel
72 T2 7-passenger
98 Jetta
97 Passat VR6
87 Audi 5000
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB