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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:46 pm Post subject: Knalleffekt (= bombshell) |
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The results, for both vehicles, are similar to those of an early '80s test, where, again, they called T3 knalleffekt, (=bombshell), because it demolished the K70, although, after that, the very surprised from the unexpected result reporter, says that T3 was ready for...expeditions!
Have a look to this, rather, unknown semi-official test:
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The Syncro Heresy |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed on all points!, and thank you very much for posting this here.
It is a good reflection of just how well these vans fare in crashes against those who turn in front of us.
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One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| levi wrote: |
| madspaniard wrote: |
it looks like you are OK, any more details about the crash? did the Audi hit anything besides your van? looks like a lot of damage compared to your syncro.
I guess you will be now on the list to buy the Projekt Zwo foglight repros. God thing the nice headlights and grill seem to be OK |
the guy said he had just dropped off his kids a few minutes earlier, and he hurt his left knee, black eyes, (maybe no seat belt?), undercarriage damage.
12,000 euros damage estimated 
but, this all happened almost 7 years ago! |
1)Unfortunately says nothing about seat belt.
2)It was a really strong shock, some consequences are expected.
3)The car may be driven as it is, apart from aesthetics and lighting. AUDI is demolished.
4)Still it is a representative example of it's behavior in moderate crashes.
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The Syncro Heresy |
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levi
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Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
it looks like you are OK, any more details about the crash? did the Audi hit anything besides your van? looks like a lot of damage compared to your syncro.
I guess you will be now on the list to buy the Projekt Zwo foglight repros. God thing the nice headlights and grill seem to be OK |
the guy said he had just dropped off his kids a few minutes earlier, and he hurt his left knee, black eyes, (maybe no seat belt?), undercarriage damage.
12,000 euros damage estimated
but, this all happened almost 7 years ago!
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
it looks like you are OK, any more details about the crash? did the Audi hit anything besides your van? looks like a lot of damage compared to your syncro.
I guess you will be now on the list to buy the Projekt Zwo foglight repros. God thing the nice headlights and grill seem to be OK |
It is not my case.
You can read about it here:
http://www.vwt3.co.at/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3584
(They asked him if the AUDI hit a wall, besides SYNCRO) 
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The Syncro Heresy |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:38 am Post subject: |
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it looks like you are OK, any more details about the crash? did the Audi hit anything besides your van? looks like a lot of damage compared to your syncro.
I guess you will be now on the list to buy the Projekt Zwo foglight repros. God thing the nice headlights and grill seem to be OK
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1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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hellenic vanagon
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Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:26 am Post subject: Driving a T3 (2WD AND SYNCRO) since 1980 |
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Please keep in mind that any vehicle may be destroyed under specific circumstances in crashes, even a tank!
Driving a T3 since 1980, I can say that the next photos represent it's typical behavior, in "logical" situations, meaning in cases within the limits of expectations for a very safe car:
Both cars are posted here, in order to have your conclusions.
Because , to see a severly damaged car, (Vanagon or anything else), saying that it is not safe enough, knowing nothing about the real evidences, cannot be accurate!
Syncro:(1979 passive safety design) minor damage.
Audi: (2000 + passive safety design) almost demolished.
In fact, the SYNCRO is better than 2WD VANAGON, having a second, parallel, chassis, under the main unibody construction.
2WD or SYNCRO, in a lot of real life crashes, you get the notion of a very strong and safe car. (P.ex. the well known case with FOLKSAM-VOLVO).
In cases where the "deformation element" does not play role, the picture is not so good.
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The Syncro Heresy
Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sir Sam
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Joined: July 19, 2009
Posts: 1690
Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| DAIZEE wrote: |
I am not convinced that anything built in the last 15 years has been built stronger. Look at accident pictures and see how the vehicles collapse like accordions. Air bags are an absolute necessity on modern vehicles for reasons I mention.
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Ya, collapse like accordians......obsorbing all that energy.
Look that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, either to the vehicle or to the occupants. The thinking in designing vehicles used to be "lets make the vehicle as rigid as possible so when it is in a collision it doesn't bend/break etc" Now the thinking is "lets transfer all that energy into the body of the vehicle, let the vehicle take all the deformation, not the passengers"
Airbags are critical to safety, but even without airbags I don't see how anyone can deny that modern vehicle structures aren't safer than anything on the road 30 years ago.
Once again I'm not saying I think the van is unsafe, I'm saying I think its irrational to think its safer than a brand new vehicle(all things being equal in a hypothetical test).
This is a poor comparison for our case(even to the point where its not worth pulling up), but it does illustrate my point:
http://colorado4wheel.com/images/misc/crash.wmv
| PDXWesty wrote: |
There have been several accounts on here in the last several years where vans have been in extreme accidents, including t-bone, head-on, and rollover. All of the occupants walked away uninjured. The vanagon was designed with a rigid frame intended to protect the occupants, like a roll cage in race cars. I'm a mechanical engineer and I believe in the concept. I'm not convinced modern cars with air bags and crumple zones are any safer. Those cars are designed to prevent major injuries, but minor injuries still occur. If the vanagon was subjected to modern day crash tests, I think it would fair well. It's not up to insurance standards to minimize damage, but I believe it is a very safe vehicle for its occupants.
p.s. just as a side note, I've seen several pictures of other vanagons that have been in head on collisions and the driver window didn't even break. My door crumpled but the window stayed in tact. unbelievable. |
I'm a mechanical engineer as well and I believe the concept too(that is making a structure around the occupants to protect them, but putting an egg in an unbreakable ball and dropping it 30 feet is not as safe as surrounding it with pillows and dropping it), I also believe that 30 years of engineering have produced vehicles that are safer than they were thirty years ago.
To make this an apples and apples comparison(or as much as it can be), between a Vanagon and T5 I would pick the T5.
Between a smart car and a vangon......well thats a tough one and it depends on the circumstances. We have plenty of anecdotal evidence for the safety of the vanagon, and I don't doubt it. But by the same regard there is just as much anecdotal evidence for the safety of new vehicles(more really, but thats mostly to do with the numbers of new vehicles vs older ones like our vans).
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'91 Carat Westy
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DAIZEE
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Joined: January 26, 2010
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Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: |
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I am not convinced that anything built in the last 15 years has been built stronger. Look at accident pictures and see how the vehicles collapse like accordions. Air bags are an absolute necessity on modern vehicles for reasons I mention.
When I owned two different 1954 A40 Austins, when I was 18 and another when I was 24 , it was a sherman tank. The body was solid, sure the lights were small and I have flapper signals but if anyone had hit me with a newer car with fins and other appendages, trust me they would have come out the worse.
Like others I say that if you keep your van in good shape with proper functioning mechanics combined with observant diligent driver, then you have a safe vehicle. I'd rather be in a vanagon than a new Mercedi SUV! I believe that the vanagon would be the sherman tank 
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'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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PDXWesty
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:40 am Post subject: |
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There have been several accounts on here in the last several years where vans have been in extreme accidents, including t-bone, head-on, and rollover. All of the occupants walked away uninjured. The vanagon was designed with a rigid frame intended to protect the occupants, like a roll cage in race cars. I'm a mechanical engineer and I believe in the concept. I'm not convinced modern cars with air bags and crumple zones are any safer. Those cars are designed to prevent major injuries, but minor injuries still occur. If the vanagon was subjected to modern day crash tests, I think it would fair well. It's not up to insurance standards to minimize damage, but I believe it is a very safe vehicle for its occupants.
p.s. just as a side note, I've seen several pictures of other vanagons that have been in head on collisions and the driver window didn't even break. My door crumpled but the window stayed in tact. unbelievable.
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Sir Sam
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| randywebb wrote: |
| but far less safe than a new MB, Volvo, BMW etc. |
I for one (from very personal experience) would have to take exception to that statement. |
Honestly man, thats not based on any kind of good scientific evidence.
Now thats not to say you didn't fair well, or that the van is unsafe. But can you honestly tell me that a 30 years newer mercedes, with umpteen airbags, more hours of crash testing simulation than what went into designing the van, led by the most anal retentive engineers in the world isn't better?
I know if I had to pick a vehicle to be in an accident in I would pick a brand spankin' new mercedes, not a 30 year old van.
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'91 Carat Westy
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dobryan
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PDXWesty
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
| but far less safe than a new MB, Volvo, BMW etc. |
I for one (from very personal experience) would have to take exception to that statement.
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randywebb
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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zehr gut on the seat belts!
other safety related things to do are to replace the rubber brake hoses every 10, 15 or 20 years
the fuel lines - in case you can't run away from your own private burning man fest fast enuff
and to check out the rest of the braking system periodically
other than that, you just have to realize that the vehicle is far safer than a Bay window or Splittie but far less safe than a new MB, Volvo, BMW etc.
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madspaniard
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
| how many of you have replaced the 25+ year old seatbelts?? |
I did, all around, almost first thing I did when I bought the westy
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1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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VisPacem
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delta-vanagon
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Location: Delta, OH
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sheesh wrote
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However, even with all these new parts, I must confess I feel that our van is not that reliable and from this feel it is less safe.
Maybe it is because everything is so new, less than 10K miles since purchase three years ago, and we have a family of 5.
With more use, perhaps I'll feel differently. |
I think the reason I love the Samba is that I have learned how to make my 24year old van more reliable and safer. I found out from here problems to look for, what those odd sounds are, trouble areas to focus on, and a lot of cool ideas to make my van more fun to drive. My 86 GL has a Bostig conversion with over 25k on it since May 2009 and I feel that it is extremely reliable now. Of course since I bought the van I have new fuel lines, new brakes, proper tires, new Bilstines, and of course a 2003 motor with just over 50k miles.
From seeing the crash tests and real world accident photos and stories here I am confident that my Vanagon will protect me as well or better than the Dodge Caravan my wife had before. I don't expect to do well if I run into a fully loaded dump truck, but I don't expect that from any car I have every owned.
The Samba gives me the knowledge and confidence to drive my 24 year old Vangon with my 4 kids, my wife, my 6 month old grandson, and anyone else on any trip we need to go on.
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DAIZEE
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Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well then I'm not uptodate on steel. Last time I had any involvement with it, it was being poorly manufactured off shore from recycled steel. There was a period. Thanks for bringing me up to date.
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'09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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Sir Sam
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Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
actually, there are new high strength steels today - partly b/c of pressure on the steel manfs. from Alcoa and other Al companies
some high performance cars use these steels - I know the new Porsches do |
Chrysler uses them in all sorts of vehicles, they are quite common place in fact.
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Sir Sam
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Posts: 1690
Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| DAIZEE wrote: |
| In my humble opinion the Vanagons are made of much stronger materials than the newer vehicles.............Steel was steel back in the old days, steel today is not the same pure steel in days gone by. |
Honestly, I think your completely wrong here. The metal in the vans unibody is soft compared to modern vehicles.
Very recently there have been great advances, vehicles designed and made in the last ten years use high strength steels capable of absorbing more energy than older steels. These steels are stronger than any used in the past and have been able to improve the safety of vehicles while also reducing the weight. One of the reasons aluminum bodies have made an inroads for reducing weight of vehicles is that these new high strength steels have made the vehicles lighter, stronger, and cheaper than using aluminum.
I LOVED drilling out the spot welds on the vanagon because the old steel was so soft it was like cutting butter, in comparison working on newer vehicles is like trying to to cut down a tree with a butter knife.
Now that being said, I'm saying I don't think the vanagon is safe, I'm just saying that modern steels are leaps and bounds better than what was used in the van 30 years ago. Just think of how safe and rigid a vanagon made with new high strength steels would be!
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