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Is your van SAFE?
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: VERY... Reply with quote


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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: AERODYNAMICS Reply with quote

Above 150 km/h, a strange feeling of stability is introduced.

Trying to explain that, (since my journey's where with an AUDI V6 (174 hp) engine, at 150-170 km/h), I found the next:

1.6 m2 surface

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The geometric center of thiw surface is

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and it under the air pressure, in high speeds, seems that works as a huge
spoiler.

The wheels take the pressure of the car's weight: (A, A1)

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To the front wheels, the pressure from the, (invisible), spoiler is added:

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So the front wheels, under this situation, work with an extra pressure, A+B, with the above mentioned results.

The total thing happens because there is a lever power, which is not present in conventional cars, due to the difference in distance and to the
relative positions between the center of the windshield and the center of the front wheels.

(In VANAGON, 1 unit of pressure in the geometric center of the windshield, (+ the metalic surface), gives more than 1 pressure to the wheels, compared to conventional cars, which have much smaler surface in slope and the center of windshield, behind the center of the front wheels, so the air pressure is less and 1 unit of pressure gives less than 1 unit to the front axle).
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:24 am    Post subject: SUSPENSION Reply with quote

FRONT

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A correction for accuracy reasons
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REAR

A subcase of "WEISSACH AXLE"

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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:02 am    Post subject: THE WHY (IS COMING) Reply with quote

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Mr. Raftopoulos, champion of the year 1993 in trial race. (Greece)
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Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: OETTINGER Reply with quote

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Link

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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:46 am    Post subject: PORSCHE B32 Reply with quote

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Stabler than Porsche 911!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how YOU drive certainly affects the impact forces in a head on - as well as whether an accident happens at all
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matter how YOU drive that makes the vans seem safer. It matters how the OTHER guy is driving when he hits you. Every post I've seen here that involves a crash has been the other driver that has hit the van. I haven't seen any vans that have hit other cars. If someone hits you who is speeding, even if you're sitting still, the safety features are going to protect you. That's what matters most, not how much of a granny you are on the road.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paintedbus wrote:
imho, safety in a vanagon depends largely on how you drive.

I personally drive like an old lady... If you compared me to anyone else on the road around here, i am by far the slowest, most cautious driver out there, usually topping out at 65 on highways and always under the speed limit elsewhere. Because of this, i have been able to avoid countless accidents with people in brand new awd luxury cars who could easily buy another after they wreck themselves.


I agree completely.
I also find that I drive much slower when I'm in my van than I do in cars because of how high up and in the front the driver's seat is.

When I'm in one of our other cars I always feel really disconnected from the road and like I'm driving in a bubble, but when I'm driving my van I feel much more like I'm part of the traffic. In a sedan I always end up speeding, but when I'm in the van I feel like I'm going much faster even though I'm going 5-10 miles below the speed limit.

It's absolutely my favorite car to drive, and I'm a much better driver when I'm behind the wheel of my van than I am when I'm driving any other car.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
Please....just agree to disagree and let's all move on.


Really! Enough carnage!

We all know that the only important thing is how safe it is when you drive over a fire pit anyway Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please....just agree to disagree and let's all move on.
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

randywebb wrote:
there is so much hopeful acceptance here, I just don't know where to begin

- it is not clear what IIHS did as the methodology is not presented, nor is the statistical analysis

- govt.s often accept and proceed on best AVAILABLE information - req'd by statute in some cases

- the fork lift "test" tells us little, esp. comparatively

etc. etc. - but believe whatever you want


1)IIHS's statistical methodology and analysis is a matter of lessons in colleges and universities.

2)Available information means information we can use.

Where to find the unavailable?

3)Comparisons!

F.ex.


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Drivers Side Roll Over Angle 41.15 Degrees Left
Passenger Side Roll Over Angle 43.24 Degrees Right

http://forums.exploringnh.com/showthread.php?10249-rollover-angles-for-Jeeps
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is so much hopeful acceptance here, I just don't know where to begin

- it is not clear what IIHS did as the methodology is not presented, nor is the statistical analysis

- govt.s often accept and proceed on best AVAILABLE information - req'd by statute in some cases

- the fork lift "test" tells us little, esp. comparatively

etc. etc. - but believe whatever you want
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Better without airbags? It is possible! Reply with quote

From the document gave you previously:

MODEL MAKE VEHICLESIZE DRIVER DEATHRATE
YEARS &SERIES &BODYSTYLE RESTRAINT (100 =AVERAGE)

1990-93 Volvo240 Midsize4-doorcar Airbag 10
1989-93 Saab9000 MidsizelUXUry car Airbag 14
1989-93 Mercedes190DIE MidsizelUXUry car Airbag 24
1990-93 VolkswagenPassat Midsize4-doorcar Beltonly 24
1992-93 LexusES300 Midsize4·doorcar Airbag 26
1990·93 LaxusLS400 Largeluxury car Airbag 32
1991·93 HondaAccord Midsizeslalionwagon Airbag 33
1993 JeepGrandCherokee4x4 Midsizeutilityvehicle Airbag 34
1991-93 DodgeCaravan Largepassengervan Airbag 34
1991-93 PlymouthVoyager Largepassengervan Airbag 34
http://www.carsafety.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr3009.pdf

Out off topic, but has a connection.

Passat 1990-1993, without airbags has lower death rate in comparison to many cars with airbags!

Same phenomenon again!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kamzcab86 wrote:
The Syncro makes up a small portion of that '84-'88 era, so that 0.6 per 10,000 is made up of mostly 2WD.

What the IIHS needs to do, is revisit those stats in the modern era: How do those '80/early '90s vehicles, that were once considered "safer than predicted", hold up in accidents on today's roads filled with SUVs, pick-up trucks, etc.? By our own forum stats, Vanagon fatalities, Syncro or not, are still pretty low, but our forum is merely a drop in a large bucket.


They say that data of various eras are directly comparable!

(O.k., adjust for the difference of the number of registrations norm. Bigger number counts for better accuracy.).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This:
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keeps getting posted producing the "Wow!" factor from folks, but that nice little list was taken from this report http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr2604.pdf , from April 1991 (that's 22 years ago!), which examined 1984-1988 model year vehicles. Back in the early '90s, Vanagons were considered among the safest due to the (surprising to experts) lower-than-predicted fatality rate. Also note those model years: The Syncro makes up a small portion of that '84-'88 era, so that 0.6 per 10,000 is made up of mostly 2WD.

What the IIHS needs to do, is revisit those stats in the modern era: How do those '80/early '90s vehicles, that were once considered "safer than predicted", hold up in accidents on today's roads filled with SUVs, pick-up trucks, etc.? By our own forum stats, Vanagon fatalities, Syncro or not, are still pretty low, but our forum is merely a drop in a large bucket.
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

randywebb wrote:
hellenic - you need to explain how those data are "adjusted" then IIHS would have to prove that the adjustments really do correct for other extraneous factors; I have not seen that

2nd - I don't see the roll center on the diagram you posted

Syncros seem fairly tippy to me; not that I wouldn't like to have one...


1)IIHS:

"It should be noted that these rates are per million registered vehicles and do not account for driver profiles and thus do not include such factors as driver ability, age, climate, gender, miles driven per year, and traffic conditions. "

and

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Another example they give, is that although is known that women have lower fatal crashes rate, some cars bought by them,
in high percentage, give high death rates!

And, somewhere else they say that the data of various era's are directly comparable.

If the data weren't in such scientific way composed, simply they will not considered as "data", accepted officially.

2)The total mass, protective rails and 4wd transission, is on the level of the center of wheel hubs. So it is hanged very low, in fact is the lowest point of the car.

3)A+ for "tipping", 45+ degrees, for a top loaded camper SYNCRO, (static):

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: NATURAL SELECTION Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellenic - you need to explain how those data are "adjusted" then IIHS would have to prove that the adjustments really do correct for other extraneous factors; I have not seen that

2nd - I don't see the roll center on the diagram you posted

Syncros seem fairly tippy to me; not that I wouldn't like to have one...
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
of Hellinic vanagon's (77) posts to date this is by far his favorite thread topic. Laughing
I only stop back in to this thread once a month now to see how far the horse has been beaten.. Rolling Eyes
and if there's anything really new or eye opening.


Thank you for statistics!

Very Happy
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